Think Keir needs another rug.

[Sheepy]

Well if that's the case we have every right to blame the Tories , for borrowing like there was no tomorrow ever since ,whilst cutting every budget they could get their hands on.. Resulting  in hardly any one of the services relying on those budgets now functioning as it was meant to. Labour will make our children pay for debt for ever, they said? Twelve  long years later and they have gathered a debt £1.2 trillion on top of the 1.0 trillion Labour went out of the door on. What happened to all that concern for the prospects of our kids?  As for the poor,  the gap between poor and wealthy is wider than ever.  I grant you the crisis bit all right , of course it did, and some did lose money. Very few lost their homes, not until this lot got their hands on it that is . In previous Tory self inflicted financial disasters . I emphasise ," self inflicted," ,thousands lost their homes, and businesses,.
As for putting Labour on a pedestal. That's not allowed here is it?  Only one of the worst governments in my long memory is allowed to be put on a pedestal here.

LOL yet you all keep putting the Westminster party up as the answer, crazy.

[Good old]

I never said the Tories would have done any different, or that it happened "because" of Labour. I said that they were in Government (and had been for the previous 10 years) and therefore THEY were responsible for regulating the Banking sector in the UK, a major world player. As the Guardian article below points out, they contributed heavily to the crisis (as did previous Tory regimes). But Labour had been in power for 10 years, and had had plenty of time to bring in regulation to kerb banking excesses, but they didn't. This was in response to you earlier trying to put the Labour party on a pedestal, as if they could never do any wrong, when in fact they were no better than the Tories in respect of regulating the banks and the finance industry

Labour's lax regulation of the City contributed to RBS collapse – watchdog | Financial Services Authority (FSA) | The Guardian


In the end just like always it was the poorest who suffered most, many of them losing the small amount of savings they did have. I am not claiming that only Labour and only UK was at fault, but that Labour were as responsible as any other government and as the Tories were for previous failings. And that the people that suffered the most were the ones Labour claim to represent makes it worse IMHO. You can't blame everyone else when they were in power themselves and did nothing to stop it

Well if that's the case we have every right to blame the Tories , for borrowing like there was no tomorrow ever since ,whilst cutting every budget they could get their hands on.. Resulting  in hardly any one of the services relying on those budgets now functioning as it was meant to. Labour will make our children pay for debt for ever, they said? Twelve  long years later and they have gathered a debt £1.2 trillion on top of the 1.0 trillion Labour went out of the door on. What happened to all that concern for the prospects of our kids?  As for the poor,  the gap between poor and wealthy is wider than ever.  I grant you the crisis bit all right , of course it did, and some did lose money. Very few lost their homes, not until this lot got their hands on it that is . In previous Tory self inflicted financial disasters . I emphasise ," self inflicted," ,thousands lost their homes, and businesses,. 
As for putting Labour on a pedestal. That's not allowed here is it?  Only one of the worst governments in my long memory is allowed to be put on a pedestal here.

[DeppityDawg]

Are we really going to believe that the only people around at that time that would not have been put in the position that Labour government .and all the others were, the Tories, the same people that had been consistently calling for less restrictions on our banks.?
Ed, was sorry , taken out of context ,as with so much more concerning that period. I'm bloody sorry over the banking crisis, and it wasn't my fault. But I suppose now I have said it.! 

I never said the Tories would have done any different, or that it happened "because" of Labour. I said that they were in Government (and had been for the previous 10 years) and therefore THEY were responsible for regulating the Banking sector in the UK, a major world player. As the Guardian article below points out, they contributed heavily to the crisis (as did previous Tory regimes). But Labour had been in power for 10 years, and had had plenty of time to bring in regulation to kerb banking excesses, but they didn't. This was in response to you earlier trying to put the Labour party on a pedestal, as if they could never do any wrong, when in fact they were no better than the Tories in respect of regulating the banks and the finance industry

Labour's lax regulation of the City contributed to RBS collapse – watchdog | Financial Services Authority (FSA) | The Guardian

Turner, who said the public had a right to be "absolutely furious" about the banking crisis, cited demands by

Tony Blair, Brown and Ed Balls that the financial district be allowed to be competitive.

In the end just like always it was the poorest who suffered most, many of them losing the small amount of savings they did have. I am not claiming that only Labour and only UK was at fault, but that Labour were as responsible as any other government and as the Tories were for previous failings. And that the people that suffered the most were the ones Labour claim to represent makes it worse IMHO. You can't blame everyone else when they were in power themselves and did nothing to stop it

[Good old]

To an extent he is correct. Having now seen an extensive documentary on it, it was shocking to see how governments and financial institutions played the system in their own interests. Barely a single person in those governments or the banking system was ever held to account, let alone jailed. Meanwhile, hundreds of thousands lost their homes and literally millions lost their pensions and life savings. You are talking about those with an average of $18,000 being thrown to the wolves while individuals with net worths in multiple $000,000s got away with fraud and deception on an unprecedented scale that almost succeeded in bring down western capitalism. It was the taxpayers of most nations that had to bail them out at the cost of trillions. Brown (as the with the leaders of other countries) had no other choice but to bail them out, as liquidity had all but evaporated from the system, commerce would have ground to a halt, industry would have stopped and there would have been no money to pay for any services, even police officers or ambulance crews. We would have been looking at anarchy

Where I disagree with Good Old is that it happened on Labours watch. They badly mismanaged the economy in examples you have already given (PFIs, selling of gold reserves etc), but their biggest failings was that THEY were in government and therefore the ones responsible for ensuring oversight and regulation of our financial and banking systems. They didn't.


Ed Balls 'deeply sorry' over banking crisis - BBC News

Mixed bag then DD, yes it happened on Labours watch. But , it didn't happen because of Labour.
It was to begin with a US problem, Lehman, brothers went down owing 613 billion dollars, that hit banks around the world, including our own , because the money Lehman,, owed had come from some of our top banks.
Only the support given by Brown, stopped those banks going broke , and causing the start of a domino effect of unrepayable debt  that would have rebounded back across the Atlantic, and made the damage already done to economies around the world, as diverse as Russia, Mexico, and most of Europe. far worse than it already was. It happened on the watch of every single government affected so . Are we really going to believe that the only people around at that time that would not have been put in the position that Labour government .and all the others were, the Tories, the same people that had been consistently calling for less restrictions on our banks.?
Ed, was sorry , taken out of context ,as with so much more concerning that period. I'm bloody sorry over the banking crisis, and it wasn't my fault. But I suppose now I have said it.!

[DeppityDawg]

Just waiting for the "It was a world banking crisis" that caused it, not Labour. What the hell do they think the last 2 years has been?

To an extent he is correct. Having now seen an extensive documentary on it, it was shocking to see how governments and financial institutions played the system in their own interests. Barely a single person in those governments or the banking system was ever held to account, let alone jailed. Meanwhile, hundreds of thousands lost their homes and literally millions lost their pensions and life savings. You are talking about those with an average of $18,000 being thrown to the wolves while individuals with net worths in multiple $000,000s got away with fraud and deception on an unprecedented scale that almost succeeded in bring down western capitalism. It was the taxpayers of most nations that had to bail them out at the cost of trillions. Brown (as the with the leaders of other countries) had no other choice but to bail them out, as liquidity had all but evaporated from the system, commerce would have ground to a halt, industry would have stopped and there would have been no money to pay for any services, even police officers or ambulance crews. We would have been looking at anarchy

Where I disagree with Good Old is that it happened on Labours watch. They badly mismanaged the economy in examples you have already given (PFIs, selling of gold reserves etc), but their biggest failings was that THEY were in government and therefore the ones responsible for ensuring oversight and regulation of our financial and banking systems. They didn't.


Ed Balls 'deeply sorry' over banking crisis - BBC News

[Sheepy]

Labour were responsible for the banking crisis. They failed to legislate to control lending and the disastrous result was due to that negligence. A whole new Banking Act had to be brought in to, hopefully, prevent it happening again.
What Nick's graph does not show, is the huge increase in debt caused by the Tory's (mis)handling of the pandemic.
In March 2021 it was 103.6% and has not stopped rising.
It's all a bit of a pointless argument.

But then New Labours previous voters have all but deserted them and now they are working on a new generation who wouldn't have suffered the previous boom and busts or recessions so they think as long as we can forget it all everything will be rosy in the garden. The Europhiles will ignore anything Brussels comes out with however bad it might as long as they think they are part of something bigger and better. Which of course it never was.

[Good old]

It was no joke, it was a true reflection of the state Labour left the economy in.
As they say, none as blind as those that don't want to see!

I think srb, says enough on this. But as far as not wanting to see. You speak for your yourself. After the banking crisis the economy  was in a state. But the expense that stretched the economy in that way  was totally justified. And that's what you are blind to and along with the Tory party have spent years imparting that blindness on a lot of  the electorate .

[srb7677]

It was no joke, it was a true reflection of the state Labour left the economy in.
As they say, none as blind as those that don't want to see!

Well it WAS just a joke which was weaponised against them, which anyone with an ounce of sense could have predicted it would be. It was an idiotic note to leave. 

I myself am no fan of New Labour as just about everyone around here knows, but in fairness until the crash of 2008, the economy was ticking along rather well. And that crash was global, caused by greedy bankers and not something homegrown. The rot actually began in the USA.

In recognition of the potential calamity, Gordon Brown and his chancellor pumped billions into the banking system, albeit still far less than the Tories have spent on Covid relief measures. This helped to prevent a disastrous crash and pump primed the economy, so much so that by the time the Tories and Libs came to office, growth was beginning to soar.

The Tories of course tanked it by their ideological obsession with austerity, as swingeing cuts caused a massive economic slowdown and growing poverty, resulting in a shrinking tax base, which prevented the supposed savings from ever fully materialising. And all the while illiterately insisting that a national economy functions in the same way as a household budget, which anyone with an ounce of economic knowledge knows to be rubbish.

For one thing, in a national economy what you spend can have a big impact upon what you earn, wholly unlike a household budget. It just depends upon what you spend, where, and when.

[Nick]

schoolboy joke

It was no joke, it was a true reflection of the state Labour left the economy in.
As they say, none as blind as those that don't want to see!

[Good old]

Course it was 😂
Thats why he says he will regret it forever!!


https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/09/liam-byrne-apology-letter-there-is-no-money-labour-general-election

It's bloody obvious what damage that note did , and he should regret ever being stupid enough to think the Tories hungry for power would not use a stupid schoolboy joke in the manner they did. But one man's stupid little joke cannot be held as reflective of the whole government.  Or as a true reflection of the actual state of play at that time.
Now right now we have a PM, famous for a whole raft of what could ,and is by millions to  be considered stupid actions . Remember that poor girl in Iranian hands ? His open support for ministers and advisers when  his highest civil servants charged with deciding when.people have breached their remits. Tells him that is exactly what they have done,  He in effect says ,"so what".  Saying nothing of costs on his flat, and the present shambles of  following rules deemed needed for the plebs.
It would seem you might dam him, after not one slip but only after a list as long as your arm. But not the party, never the party.  Yet ? Need I say more.  It may have worked in an almost public school ,debate sort of way. but that is the problem because  the  reality of what it contributed to has and continues  to be a never ending spiral to the bottom. And I suppose we deserve it if we can't see it for what it is.

[Nick]

That's the most pathetic part of the whole disaster. The use of a pathetic personal joke from one individual , used to claim something that was patently untrue. I think it's well recorded such silly personal notes were almost traditional. And do not actually reflect factually on the actual situation ,or ,as used in this case the competence of the Labour Party.  The use of it in the way it has been used is the sort of opportunist rubbish that has reduced public understanding of the National exchequer to the level of a kitchen budget or maybe I should say the sink.

Course it was 😂 
Thats why he says he will regret it forever!!


https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/09/liam-byrne-apology-letter-there-is-no-money-labour-general-election

[Good old]

Labour were responsible for the banking crisis. They failed to legislate to control lending and the disastrous result was due to that negligence. A whole new Banking Act had to be brought in to, hopefully, prevent it happening again.
What Nick's graph does not show, is the huge increase in debt caused by the Tory's (mis)handling of the pandemic.
In March 2021 it was 103.6% and has not stopped rising.
It's all a bit of a pointless argument.

Come off it Barry, Labour at that  time where overseeing a banking system that didn't actually satisfy the Tories at that time. They said very openly regulation should be further relaxed. How much worse could it have been if they got their way ,or worse still been in power. Yes naturally anew system was adopted the old one so worshipped by the Tories had failed everyone.The chart he used does show  borrowing for covid, he has removed it for obvious reasons. 
I'm not at all sure that everyone blames the Tories for their covid borrowing, after all it is another case of spend or catastrophe . Exactly as was the case with covering for the banks. What is amazing is that Labour never got a moments sympathy.

[Barry]

I don't tell the story . The chart does. Ten years after the  event the levels flatten , not exactly , they show  a shade of decline , prior to covid, that's all you can claim because the figures still remained unstable going up and down. And of course you , would sooner look at how the debt was serviced if it helps you ignore the facts behind what coursed the use of debt to cover the problem created by bankers.

Labour were responsible for the banking crisis. They failed to legislate to control lending and the disastrous result was due to that negligence. A whole new Banking Act had to be brought in to, hopefully, prevent it happening again.
What Nick's graph does not show, is the huge increase in debt caused by the Tory's (mis)handling of the pandemic.
In March 2021 it was 103.6% and has not stopped rising.
It's all a bit of a pointless argument.

[Good old]

And your party thought it was funny.

That's the most pathetic part of the whole disaster. The use of a pathetic personal joke from one individual , used to claim something that was patently untrue. I think it's well recorded such silly personal notes were almost traditional. And do not actually reflect factually on the actual situation ,or ,as used in this case the competence of the Labour Party.  The use of it in the way it has been used is the sort of opportunist rubbish that has reduced public understanding of the National exchequer to the level of a kitchen budget or maybe I should say the sink.

[Nick]

I don't tell the story . The chart does. Ten years after the  event the levels flatten , not exactly , they show  a shade of decline , prior to covid, that's all you can claim because the figures still remained unstable going up and down. And of course you , would sooner look at how the debt was serviced if it helps you ignore the facts behind what coursed the use of debt to cover the problem created by bankers.

And your party thought it was funny.