Meet the Ancestors

[Streetwalker]

Another good one from young Tom on the question of the English Identity and the constant attacks against it

What is English Identity? Does England Exist? (youtube.com)

Jesus Christ man I thought Thomas had rejoined us . I thought all these old threads had been archived ?

[papasmurf]

I read the thread header and thought thread would be about the excellent archaeology series being repeated on BBC4 on Mondays at 20.00 hours.

BBC Two - Meet the Ancestors - Episode guide

[Sampanviking]

Another good one from young Tom on the question of the English Identity and the constant attacks against it

What is English Identity? Does England Exist? (youtube.com)

[Sampanviking]

From memory , the only non indo european languages in europe appear to be finnish , basque and hungarian. All the rest being linked.

Of course people forget there was a strong non celtic popualtion in these islands ,pre 3000 years ago. The non celtic people who built skara brae , or stonehenge and other places in ireland.

What i was always taught was the original celts came here in scottish and irish legend from spain , some 3000 years ago , and established the ancestral tongues of scotland and ireland , a sort of proto gaelic , which was at the time the original celtic language of these islands. Some hints include river names , there are five river names from orkney to english sussex called ouse in these islands , all from the gaelic word uisge For water.

Then from around 600 bc , anothe wave of celts started pushing in from europe , possibly under threat from greek colonies, then later the roman empire  , and this was the ancestors of the welsh , or who would beocme the original british .

You can see the link between welsh and scottish/irish. originally in scottish ( q celtic) son would be "mac". This new wave of celts dropped the c for  a p and  , mac became "map". Later the welsh shortened it once again to "ap"

Same with the word head. In scottish , it was "ceann" , in welsh it became "pen". Swapping the c for the p again. Feather was cluv in scottish  and then once the c was swapped , it became pluv in welsh.

All intresteing stuff , and of course as you say , you dont need a mass popualtion change to change language. Then normans made up less than 1 % of the population in england after 1066 , yet today , 45 % of the english language is norman french as they supplanted the nobility and forced language change through cultural osmosis.

Similarly the anglo saxons seems to have pushed the celts right out of much of what is now modern england hundreds of years earlier , and old english has practically no celtic borrowing words , which you would expect from populations and language mixing , as the scnadinavians did to england years later.

All a mixed bag and all interesting stuff.

Yes indeed. so much there to talk about.
The Finns are a fascinating bunch and originally are of East Asian Hunter Gatherer stock but are now so Admixed that the East Asian genes are largely submerged and only identified by some Chinese Haplogroups in the DNA. Fascinating language, which I heard described as a Linguistic deep freeze with a massive amount of archaic loan words, from multiple sources, still in use, thousands of years after being adopted.

In the British Isles and in most of Western Europe, we have three main genetic components. From the Mesolithic, we have genes from the original post ice age inhabitants, who are known as the Western Hunter Gatherers. Around 6000BC we saw the arrival of the Neolithic Farmers, who came originally from Anatolia and spread into Western Europe on two separate routes, one following the rivers of Central Europe to the North Sea , the other following the Mediterranean Sea and then up the Atlantic Coast from Iberia. These people mixed with the WHG and it is these people that built the massive stone monuments and long barrows etc. These farmers were however totally displaced by the arrival of the Indo-European Bell Beaker people at the end of the third millennium BC.
So genetically, we are about 10% WHG about 40% NF and 50% BB.
Thanks for the language examples, I really do live this sort of thing.

[Thomas]

The Scythians were themselves a Indo-European people that were a perfect example of the Steppe nomads from whose stock they are descended. Likewise the Tocharians were a very Celtic Indo European people who left mummies behind in the deserts of what is now Western China and indeed there is a strong Iberian connection in the migration of Celtic people into the British Isles during the 1st Millennia BC. The truth though is that there is little difference between any Western European people in terms of their genes. All are Indo-European peoples, all have languages which share many similarities in both words and underpinning linguistic and cultural concepts. We all come from the same original stock and we all admixed with the same groups on the way.
When Celtic people started to arrive at the beginning of the Iron Age, and started to supplant the elite of the established Bell Beaker people (the first Indo-Europeans to reach the British Isles) very little seems to have actually changed, bar what would seem to be a change of language.

From memory , the only non indo european languages in europe appear to be finnish , basque and hungarian. All the rest being linked.

Of course people forget there was a strong non celtic popualtion in these islands ,pre 3000 years ago. The non celtic people who built skara brae , or stonehenge and other places in ireland.

What i was always taught was the original celts came here in scottish and irish legend from spain , some 3000 years ago , and established the ancestral tongues of scotland and ireland , a sort of proto gaelic , which was at the time the original celtic language of these islands. Some hints include river names , there are five river names from orkney to english sussex called ouse in these islands , all from the gaelic word uisge For water.

Then from around 600 bc , anothe wave of celts started pushing in from europe , possibly under threat from greek colonies, then later the roman empire  , and this was the ancestors of the welsh , or who would beocme the original british .

You can see the link between welsh and scottish/irish. originally in scottish ( q celtic) son would be "mac". This new wave of celts dropped the c for  a p and  , mac became "map". Later the welsh shortened it once again to "ap"

Same with the word head. In scottish , it was "ceann" , in welsh it became "pen". Swapping the c for the p again. Feather was cluv in scottish  and then once the c was swapped , it became pluv in welsh.

All intresteing stuff , and of course as you say , you dont need a mass popualtion change to change language. Then normans made up less than 1 % of the population in england after 1066 , yet today , 45 % of the english language is norman french as they supplanted the nobility and forced language change through cultural osmosis.

Similarly the anglo saxons seems to have pushed the celts right out of much of what is now modern england hundreds of years earlier , and old english has practically no celtic borrowing words , which you would expect from populations and language mixing , as the scnadinavians did to england years later.

All a mixed bag and all interesting stuff.

[Sampanviking]

Very interesting sampan. As you may know , i have a great interest in history and anthropolgy.

Scottish myth and lagend traces the scots migrating from ancient scythia , in central eurasia  , travelling down through egypt and north africa ( the name "scots" is supposed to come from pharoahs daughter scota") and up through iberia to these islands.

Our native scottish language as you know is gaelic , which like english and welsh is classed as an indo european language , with many myths and legends from both scottish and irish culture mirroring hindu myth and legend , showing the common base of the indo europeans.

The Scythians were themselves a Indo-European people that were a perfect example of the Steppe nomads from whose stock they are descended. Likewise the Tocharians were a very Celtic Indo European people who left mummies behind in the deserts of what is now Western China and indeed there is a strong Iberian connection in the migration of Celtic people into the British Isles during the 1st Millennia BC. The truth though is that there is little difference between any Western European people in terms of their genes. All are Indo-European peoples, all have languages which share many similarities in both words and underpinning linguistic and cultural concepts. We all come from the same original stock and we all admixed with the same groups on the way.
When Celtic people started to arrive at the beginning of the Iron Age, and started to supplant the elite of the established Bell Beaker people (the first Indo-Europeans to reach the British Isles) very little seems to have actually changed, bar what would seem to be a change of language.

[Thomas]

Who were our Indo-European forebears and where did they come from?

For many years, academics have used Archeology, Archeo History, comparative theology and linguistics to follow back common threads to identify a common ancestor group.
Now Genetics have also joined the game and has been answered many of the outstanding questions.

So meet the Yamnaya, our proto Indo-European ancestors, Horse and Cattle Pastorialists from the Western Steppe of what is now Western Russia and Ukraine, from the beginning of the Bronze age, who give us the majority of out genes, our base culture, traditional religion and language.
Young Tom, who presents the video, certainly knows his stuff and is enthusiastic to strip out the Politically Correct distortions that seem endemic in all forms of modern academia...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d48bhkOiEuA

Very interesting sampan. As you may know , i have a great interest in history and anthropolgy.

Scottish myth and lagend traces the scots migrating from ancient scythia , in central eurasia  , travelling down through egypt and north africa ( the name "scots" is supposed to come from pharoahs daughter scota") and up through iberia to these islands.

Our native scottish language as you know is gaelic , which like english and welsh is classed as an indo european language , with many myths and legends from both scottish and irish culture mirroring hindu myth and legend , showing the common base of the indo europeans.

[Sampanviking]

Who were our Indo-European forebears and where did they come from?

For many years, academics have used Archeology, Archeo History, comparative theology and linguistics to follow back common threads to identify a common ancestor group.
Now Genetics have also joined the game and has been answered many of the outstanding questions.

So meet the Yamnaya, our proto Indo-European ancestors, Horse and Cattle Pastorialists from the Western Steppe of what is now Western Russia and Ukraine, from the beginning of the Bronze age, who give us the majority of out genes, our base culture, traditional religion and language.
Young Tom, who presents the video, certainly knows his stuff and is enthusiastic to strip out the Politically Correct distortions that seem endemic in all forms of modern academia...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d48bhkOiEuA