Channel 4 tonight 19:30

[srb7677]

The evidence lies in the fact that there are literally millions of jobs available but nobody applying for them.
I'm also willing to bet that the percentage Polish / Romanian's on the dole is minimal compared to the endemic dolies. They actually have a work ethic rather than a get out of work ethic.

That is not evidence. Only a fairly small minority of welfare claimants are actually on the dole with an obligation to look for work. And there is a lot of churn in those figures, with the majority of them only recently out of work and soon to be back in work somewhere else. There is also a further difficulty in some areas due to locals being unable to afford to live in these areas on the wages on offer, due to a dearth of affordable housing. And many jobs require skills that a lot of people don't have. It takes a lot of money to train to be a HGV driver for example, and very few people out of work will have the financial resources for that.

So come on. Instead of making assumptions about those out of work and calling it evidence, what about some actual evidence?

[Nick]

There are a few of those. But where reality evaporates is in your frequently stressed, non evidence-based, assumption that such types are typical of everyone claiming welfare.

The evidence lies in the fact that there are literally millions of jobs available but nobody applying for them. 
I'm also willing to bet that the percentage Polish / Romanian's on the dole is minimal compared to the endemic dolies. They actually have a work ethic rather than a get out of work ethic. 

[Thomas]

I don't dislike people on benefits Tom, I dislike people on benefits who have no intention of ever doing a days work and are taking the p!ss.

ok nick my mistake and i stand corrected.

[srb7677]

I don't dislike people on benefits Tom, I dislike people on benefits who have no intention of ever doing a days work and are taking the p!ss.

There are a few of those. But where reality evaporates is in your frequently stressed, non evidence-based, assumption that such types are typical of everyone claiming welfare. 

[Nick]

Im not sure i agree with either you or nick. You both seem to mirror each other , in that one appears to dislike people on benefits , the other , the affluent rich.

I think taxation is reasonable in scotland and england , but of course it could be tweaked for the better. All i will say though is steve remember , it was those affluent rich people who decided once upon a time to do something about the plight of the poor....they didnt need to. It wasnt some natural progression of mankind.

I always say to those moaning in scotland , and this applies to england as well , if you are going to be poor , then scotland ( or england) are the countries to be poor in. The vast majority of people on this earth live on less than a dollar a day , and really are dirt poor with nothing compared to what the "poor" in the western world have.

I think we should all appreciate the society we have , and how we live , while also striving to better it in any way we can. There wont ever be that perfect "left wing" utopia ( or right wing) that some go on about.

Labour , as the representative of the so called left have had ample opportunities in power to create that utopia , and have failed each and every single time. All this stuff about "fair taxation" really does come across to many as simple politics of envy and spite.

You will never please all the people all the time steve. A few years back , when sturgeon was allowed to bring in a scottish tax code different from england , and asked those on high income to pay a few hundred quid a year more than their earning counterparts in england , to help cover things such as free tuition , lower council tax and much else , you should have heard the moans from those in higher earning.

All stirred up by the media of course , until it was pointed out what scotland gets free of charge or cheaper than our english cousins. It all depends where you want a country to go , do you want high earning high taxation big government like the scandinavian countries or the opposite like the yanks? We seem to be somewhere in between , but on my travels about , i havent yet heard of anyone anywhere who thinks they live in the perfect utopia.

Finally , this sort of "tax" we in scotland have to pay to service the last labour governments out of control debt and spending im sure you will agree certainly isnt fair.

I don't dislike people on benefits Tom, I dislike people on benefits who have no intention of ever doing a days work and are taking the p!ss. 

[Thomas]

What, you mean like 98% and a special tax on anyone who chooses to invest in a company to give it the money to get things done .......

How are things in that left wing labour party run utopia of the principality of cymru john? Has drakeford implemented that fair taxation and fair economy yet?

I know steve has left the labour party now, but everytime i hear either a labour party supporter or some left wing idealist talk about the perfect society , i always look over to wales to see how the dream is coming along.

[johnofgwent]

What the left actually want is fair taxation in an economy what works for all.

What, you mean like 98% and a special tax on anyone who chooses to invest in a company to give it the money to get things done .......

[Thomas]

That is another nonsense trope beloved of the greedy affluent.

What the left actually want is fair taxation in an economy what works for all.

The last thing the greedy affluent want is fair taxation, because they tend to specialise in taking the piss.

Im not sure i agree with either you or nick. You both seem to mirror each other , in that one appears to dislike people on benefits , the other , the affluent rich.

I think taxation is reasonable in scotland and england , but of course it could be tweaked for the better. All i will say though is steve remember , it was those affluent rich people who decided once upon a time to do something about the plight of the poor....they didnt need to. It wasnt some natural progression of mankind.

I always say to those moaning in scotland , and this applies to england as well , if you are going to be poor , then scotland ( or england) are the countries to be poor in. The vast majority of people on this earth live on less than a dollar a day , and really are dirt poor with nothing compared to what the "poor" in the western world have.

I think we should all appreciate the society we have , and how we live , while also striving to better it in any way we can. There wont ever be that perfect "left wing" utopia ( or right wing) that some go on about.

Labour , as the representative of the so called left have had ample opportunities in power to create that utopia , and have failed each and every single time. All this stuff about "fair taxation" really does come across to many as simple politics of envy and spite.

You will never please all the people all the time steve. A few years back , when sturgeon was allowed to bring in a scottish tax code different from england , and asked those on high income to pay a few hundred quid a year more than their earning counterparts in england , to help cover things such as free tuition , lower council tax and much else , you should have heard the moans from those in higher earning.

All stirred up by the media of course , until it was pointed out what scotland gets free of charge or cheaper than our english cousins. It all depends where you want a country to go , do you want high earning high taxation big government like the scandinavian countries or the opposite like the yanks? We seem to be somewhere in between , but on my travels about , i havent yet heard of anyone anywhere who thinks they live in the perfect utopia.

Finally , this sort of "tax" we in scotland have to pay to service the last labour governments out of control debt and spending im sure you will agree certainly isnt fair.

[T00ts]

I always thought that the left are very happy for people to earn more as long as they don't end up having more.

[Nick]

That is another nonsense trope beloved of the greedy affluent.

What the left actually want is fair taxation in an economy what works for all.

The last thing the greedy affluent want is fair taxation, because they tend to specialise in taking the piss.

So what is fair tax?
Fair is, if you earn 10 times more you pay 10 times more tax. The system now means that the top end earners pay 25 times more and still you're not happy. This doesn't take into consideration the vast sums of money that may have been spent on the education to facilitate the higher wage. 

[Barry]

That is another nonsense trope beloved of the greedy affluent.

What the left actually want is fair taxation in an economy what works for all.

The last thing the greedy affluent want is fair taxation, because they tend to specialise in taking the piss.

Although they do sometimes give a bit of cash to keep a forum going, so we can have free speech to dis them.

[srb7677]

As you said, follow the rules and you'll be fine. The rabid left however want the rich bled dry to a level where they have the same as them.

That is another nonsense trope beloved of the greedy affluent.

What the left actually want is fair taxation in an economy what works for all.

The last thing the greedy affluent want is fair taxation, because they tend to specialise in taking the piss.

[Nick]

So?

As you said, follow the rules and you'll be fine. The rabid left however want the rich bled dry to a level where they have the same as them. 

[Borchester]

Suggested reading.  (All of it.)


https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/use-of-marketed-tax-avoidance-schemes-in-the-uk/use-of-marketed-tax-avoidance-schemes-in-the-uk

So?

[Borchester]

Indeed so. And to my mind the rich thief has even less excuse since he is far less likely to be driven to it by need and is simply indulging in pure greed.

All types of fiddles, whether that be claiming what you are not entitled to, or not paying your dues when it comes to honouring your financial obligations, if they are actually fiddles that word implies illicit, illegitimate or illegal, and is de facto fraud. Or to put it more bluntly, theft.

Sounds like the usual low calorie leftie whinge, no doubt induced by a bit of overindulgence during the festive season.

Taxation is a game in that it has certain rules. Follow the rules and you will do a lot better than someone who can't be bothered. Of course, a lot of those who do badly won't blame their own ignorance and idleness, but will instead claim that you are cheating........