Labour Party elder statesman Baron (Wreck it and Run) Reid Warts & all

[Good old]

No need to , i have expanded on the point many a time. You choose not to listen as your mind is closed.

trying and failing to push to voting public down a narrow corridor and offer a choice between two parties ,two cheeks of the same arse with a fag papers width between them in ideology and policy with the exception of brexit is laughable.

There is the nub of it. You have expanded everything but, no alternative. And you know it . Two cheeks of the same capitalist arse ? Yes. What other party does that not apply to? Come on Thomas, you are the political brain, of Scotland. Spell it out
It's so easy to deride anything or anyone. But having a validated  workable alternative , is even beyond you it seems.
Your problem is very simple, as things stand ,there is only one viable alternative to Tory big C rule, and it has to contain middle ground politics which Labour is capable of representing. And by opposing that all you do is support the idea of one party rule. As even you can not come up with the option.

[Thomas]

I came to that conclusion some years ago,it's what we replace it with and the much needed reforms.

What we don't need is the piers Corbin types and self styled resistance types.

Well as you know cromwell , i want scotlands politicians out of that place . What you replace your political system and how it works is up to you , ut im quietly confident the english people can come up with a far better system than the two party stitch up that is currently in place.

People like good old are the regressives who want to hold you and your country back.

Change can be good , it doesnt necessarily equate with being a bad thing. I think its quite clear things cant stay as they are.

Still its your parliament so your problem.

[Thomas]

All the same old ground Thomas, obviously you think if you go to even greater lengths ,and longer and longer tirades expanding on the same endless points. It will come out different. It doesn't. You make the point once more you detest Labour. And that's all .  What you never say is , if Labour, especially the moderate end of that party is not suitable to rule instead of the Tories , then what or who is. Expand on that why don't you? 

No need to , i have expanded on the point many a time. You choose not to listen as your mind is closed.

trying and failing to push to voting public down a narrow corridor and offer a choice between two parties ,two cheeks of the same arse with a fag papers width between them in ideology and policy with the exception of brexit is laughable.

[Good old]

Broken record. Do you ever listen to yourself?  There is only one party in power, that represents the U.K., it's the Tory party.

I always listen and think carefully when i post . You calerly dont , with some of the puerile rubbish you spout on this forum.

The tories are incontrol of the uk , quite an obvious statement , but they dont represent the uk as  they have no seats in northern ireland , 6/59 seats in scotland on a mere 25 % of the vote , 14/40 seats in wales on a third of the vote , and the vast majority of theri seats are in your nation , where they have 345/533 seats and managed nearly half he vote in england in 2019.

Quite clearly down to the stupidity of keir starmers disasterous brexit policy in denying england what it voted for in 2016 , handed the tories a landslide as i keep saying. Your party pissed off 63% of labour own consitituenceis who voted brexit in 2016.

So its my fault in scotland that labour and keir starmer pissed off the eglish that much over their anti democrtic stance that the red wall voters in labour old fiefdom ran out to vote tory?

On top of that , you lament that i suport tory in england ( which amounts to nothing more than talking truth on an obscure interweb forum in the outreaches of the internet rather than any real physical support) yet in scotland , the labour party go into coaltion with the tories you tell us you hate to keep out the snp , stand and campaign beside them , and even at recent elections prominent labour politicians and party aparatchiks were telling scots labour voters in marginal seats to go out and vote tory to stop the snp?

Stope it good old. My fackin sides are hurting.
Theres nothing to wriggle about. Are you now seriously trying to imply one lone scotsman on the interwebby on an abscure political forum is brainwashing the english electorate ,who we know labour think cannot think for themselves , into voting tory?

Your protestations good old get more delusional by the hour mate.

Its not my fault the english public can see right through your party . You should listen to your fellow englishmen like deppty dawg or cromwell on why they stopped supporting labour.

...and i can tell you  , while im flattered you think i have such a long arm and influence , it really isnt because i personally brainwashed them.
No you need to detach your hopes from reality good old.

Two party politics is what is destroying england. Labour tory want to keep the cosy stitch up in place ,when quite clearly , the voting public in england from what i can see are fed up wth both your parties.

Parties like ukip and brexit  ,lib dems and greens have all to a lesser or greater degree had a significant maount of the electorate support , while people like you want to restrict the english publics choice in politics to the cosy two party stitch up.

Im not the enemy of people in england , its people like you that wants to hold the english publics political progression back in the dark ages of two party politics.
..and why should it? Scotland doesnt exist for the labour party to use as voting fodder in your internal war in england with the conservatives.
There you go again , waffling on the false narrative of tory bad , and everyne has to unite to beat them. It doesnt occur to you in your deluded mindset that the vast majority dont like your party any more than they do tory.

If you replace shite with shite , its still shite. can't you see how people are fed up with new labour , old labour  , and all their nonsensical tory bad rhetoric and crap politics? You tell us johnson is bad , and the tories are bad , and all the usual hysterical guff , but we look to labour run wales and dont see anything better than snp scotland or tory england.
I long for that day , but while your political parties keep lording it over scotland , i will continue to discuss politics wether you like it or not.

As i said , you can't handle the fact im not a tory , but hate labour equally as i do them. I can sit on the sidelines talking english/uk politics totally unemcumbered by the political ideaology and baggage that weighs you down , can call it as i see it wihtout a care in the world.

...but dont listen to me. Listen to your fellow english people as to why they dont like labour. Its their votes you need to win power ate westminster .
I havent claimed any political party is perfect. In fact i went so far as to say that in an indy scotland , i wouldnt necessarily vote snp and my vote would be up for the highest bidder.

Of course labour dont like people who think for themself do you? For years , you totally relied on the old vote labour cause my faither did vote  , rather than actually providing anything usefull to the voter.

Thats now come unstuck , and labour are squealing about it as people arent prepared to accept a party of useless benchwarmers. No one expects perfection , just a measure of competence that labour and keir starmer sadly lack.i , and many others will be fighting you and your despicable party every step of the way.

All the same old ground Thomas, obviously you think if you go to even greater lengths ,and longer and longer tirades expanding on the same endless points. It will come out different. It doesn't. You make the point once more you detest Labour. And that's all .  What you never say is , if Labour, especially the moderate end of that party is not suitable to rule instead of the Tories , then what or who is. Expand on that why don't you?  

[Thomas]

Broken record. Do you ever listen to yourself?  There is only one party in power, that represents the U.K., it's the Tory party.

I always listen and think carefully when i post . You calerly dont , with some of the puerile rubbish you spout on this forum.

The tories are incontrol of the uk , quite an obvious statement , but they dont represent the uk as  they have no seats in northern ireland , 6/59 seats in scotland on a mere 25 % of the vote , 14/40 seats in wales on a third of the vote , and the vast majority of theri seats are in your nation , where they have 345/533 seats and managed nearly half he vote in england in 2019.

Quite clearly down to the stupidity of keir starmers disasterous brexit policy in denying england what it voted for in 2016 , handed the tories a landslide as i keep saying. Your party pissed off 63% of labour own consitituenceis who voted brexit in 2016.

You never stop supporting them over any realistic opposition in England.

So its my fault in scotland that labour and keir starmer pissed off the eglish that much over their anti democrtic stance that the red wall voters in labour old fiefdom ran out to vote tory?

On top of that , you lament that i suport tory in england ( which amounts to nothing more than talking truth on an obscure interweb forum in the outreaches of the internet rather than any real physical support) yet in scotland , the labour party go into coaltion with the tories you tell us you hate to keep out the snp , stand and campaign beside them , and even at recent elections prominent labour politicians and party aparatchiks were telling scots labour voters in marginal seats to go out and vote tory to stop the snp?

Stope it good old. My fackin sides are hurting.

You can wriggle all you like, it matters not what your reasoning is ,you do support them , in the context of English ,politics.

Theres nothing to wriggle about. Are you now seriously trying to imply one lone scotsman on the interwebby on an abscure political forum is brainwashing the english electorate ,who we know labour think cannot think for themselves , into voting tory?

Your protestations good old get more delusional by the hour mate.

Its not my fault the english public can see right through your party . You should listen to your fellow englishmen like deppty dawg or cromwell on why they stopped supporting labour.

...and i can tell you  , while im flattered you think i have such a long arm and influence , it really isnt because i personally brainwashed them.

Two party politics , does compute in England.

No you need to detach your hopes from reality good old.

Two party politics is what is destroying england. Labour tory want to keep the cosy stitch up in place ,when quite clearly , the voting public in england from what i can see are fed up wth both your parties.

Parties like ukip and brexit  ,lib dems and greens have all to a lesser or greater degree had a significant maount of the electorate support , while people like you want to restrict the english publics choice in politics to the cosy two party stitch up.

Im not the enemy of people in england , its people like you that wants to hold the english publics political progression back in the dark ages of two party politics.

What is happening in Scotland, is what doesn't compute in England.

..and why should it? Scotland doesnt exist for the labour party to use as voting fodder in your internal war in england with the conservatives.

.The only chance in England is a United front, opposition spread across the board , exactly what the Tories most rely on not being there, the fact that it is not , and shouldn't be,  is what you promote, in fact you pretend to find common ground with any opposition to a United middle ground response to the Tories. why would that be?

There you go again , waffling on the false narrative of tory bad , and everyne has to unite to beat them. It doesnt occur to you in your deluded mindset that the vast majority dont like your party any more than they do tory.

If you replace shite with shite , its still shite. Cant you see how people are fed up with new labour , old labour  , and all their nonsensical tory bad rhetoric and crap politics? You tell us johnson is bad , and the tories are bad , and all the usual hysterical guff , but we look to labour run wales and dont see anything better than snp scotland or tory england.

As you find it so easy to tell us and our political parties feek off out of your political business in Scotland, why not take a leaf out of your own book. Us getting wild? I think it's you that gets hot under the collar .

I long for that day , but while your political parties keep lording it over scotland , i will continue to discuss politics wether you like it or not.

As i said , you cant handle the fact im not a tory , but hate labour equally as i do them. I can sit on the sidelines talking english/uk politics totally unemcumbered by the political ideaology and baggage that weighs you down , can call it as i see it wihtout a care in the world.

...but dont listen to me. Listen to your fellow english people as to why they dont like labour. Its their votes you need to win power ate westminster .

What you can't get,or don't want to ,is that ,No one's perfect, no party is perfect.

I havent claimed any political party is perfect. In fact i went so far as to say that in an indy scotland , i wouldnt necessarily vote snp and my vote would be up for the highest bidder.

Of course labour dont like people who think for themself do you? For years , you totally relied on the old vote labour cause my faither did vote  , rather than actually providing anything usefull to the voter.

Thats now come unstuck , and labour are squealing about it as people arent prepared to accept a party of useless benchwarmers. No one expects perfection , just a measure of competence that labour and keir starmer sadly lack.

I don't mind you saying we have a fight on our hands, that's bloody obvious, it's how you go about it.

i , and many others will be fighting you and your despicable party every step of the way.

[Good old]

Everytime i talk politics to you , specifically referring to the labour parties ingloriuos record , you are like a broken down record and start waffling on about the tories.

Why is that?

I will tell you why. You are still stuck on the old two party mindset , where if someone slags off labour, it automantically means they are a tory , and vice versa.

It doesnt compute in modern politcs , not just in my country , but in your own , quite clearly this sort of political guff is so out of date it unreal.

The fact i couldnt give a feck about any of your british parties , or your ideologies , and simply want you all to feck out of my country is somthing you can't handle , and it sends you wild.

You have no answer to anyhting i say , or the fact i can quite clearly sit on the sidelines of your politics , calling out truth as i see it without a bone in any fight between you and your opposites in the english conservatives , or the fact im not interested in your parliament , your ideologies , your political dogma and all the rest.

The fact we scottish have come to see the light with the "british imperial labour party" , in the fact the english left have no interest in us outside of the fact they want us as nothing more than pure voting fodder , has you in bits.

Theres nothing fraudulent about me good old. I think this is more of your reverse psychology. You and your ilk are the frauds.

Even your own countrymen can see that fact , which is why according to the latest polls , depsite the shitshow that is the johnson tory government  , you still cannot poll a majority government. That in itself speaks volumes.......

Broken record. Do you ever listen to yourself?  There is only one party in power, that represents the U.K., it's the Tory party. You never stop supporting them over any realistic opposition in England. You can wriggle all you like, it matters not what your reasoning is ,you do support them , in the context of English ,politics.
Two party politics , does compute in England. What is happening in Scotland, is what doesn't compute in England.
We can not run to a socialist leaning bunch of freedom advocators .The only chance in England is a United front, opposition spread across the board , exactly what the Tories most rely on not being there, the fact that it is not , and shouldn't be,  is what you promote, in fact you pretend to find common ground with any opposition to a United middle ground response to the Tories. why would that be?
 As you find it so easy to tell us and our political parties feek off out of your political business in Scotland, why not take a leaf out of your own book. Us getting wild? I think it's you that gets hot under the collar .
What you can't get,or don't want to ,is that ,No one's perfect, no party is perfect. And no party or opposition you could ever think up will ever be perfect, or indeed offer more than what for the vast majority is slow progress to a better world for everyone. Order needs government, and government needs control. We will always be controlled no matter the make up or objectives of whoever is allowed to rule.
None of this stops me wanting to find a path, to get a much fairer slice of that  cake that ,at present international capitalists , and a governing party that pays almost complete homage to them has far to much control over.
So you wanting freedom from England, has little or f—k all to do with English politics, as it stands right now.
I don't mind you saying we have a fight on our hands, that's bloody obvious, it's how you go about it.

[cromwell]

Tories stab us i nthe front , while labour stab us in the back .Even you own countrymen in places like northern england are coming to see that.

I came to that conclusion some years ago,it's what we replace it with and the much needed reforms.

What we don't need is the piers Corbin types and self styled resistance types.

[Thomas]

In fairness to him, you have always come across as someone who - if you had to choose between the Tories and Labour -would always prefer the former. That being the case you will always provoke that kind of response from any Labour loyalist of a kind who sees thing in tribalist party political terms.

well you would be wrong , and as ever yet again as i always say about the brit left , you lecture but never listen.

What i said was i have never once in my life voted tory , and never will. I dont support any british party. What i also said , if someone put a gun to my head , and forced me to choose between british labour and british tory , out of the two , with a gun pointing at my head i would vote tory.

Do you understand that? The nuance and implication of that is two fold.

1. labour and tory are shit , but labour edges it in my opinion.

2. im expanding on good olds very own politcal two party dogma , where he suggest constantly we must all fall into line and pick between the two horse race.

Good old is the conservative here , holding back political progression in your own country , and wants us all to toe the line in the same old two party politics that has been failing us all for decades.

If you cant see what im saying , then you are indeed beyond help.

Let me re iterate my politics for you. Im a scottish nationalsit , not encumbered by any party of political ideology or dogma except scotland being independent. I dont care about labour or tory , dont support either , and want you all to feck out my country.

Its i simply i hold a special place of hatred in my heart for your former party.

The tories are cants. We know where we stand with them. We scottish though have all come to despise the dead hand of friendship from englands left and their cloak and dagger politics , the twin cheek of the same british arse as the conservatives .

Tories stab us i nthe front , while labour stab us in the back .Even you own countrymen in places like northern england are coming to see that.

[Thomas]

You dissect all you like. You only ever talk Tory good. much better than Labour.  if they mean nothing to you ,then why go to the extreme lengths you do to educate all those that will listen , that they are so much preferable to Labour.? Your claim to not care for the Tories is fraudulent , as I have said before.  If anyone waffles it has to be you , page after page of it.
Both parties , have not been perfect. And you think I should not say that ,by reminding you of Tory failure, past and present. Dissect all you like mate, I find it hard to see why anyone wouldn't see through you.

Everytime i talk politics to you , specifically referring to the labour parties ingloriuos record , you are like a broken down record and start waffling on about the tories.

Why is that?

I will tell you why. You are still stuck on the old two party mindset , where if someone slags off labour, it automantically means they are a tory , and vice versa.

It doesnt compute in modern politcs , not just in my country , but in your own , quite clearly this sort of political guff is so out of date it unreal.

The fact i couldnt give a feck about any of your british parties , or your ideologies , and simply want you all to feck out of my country is somthing you can't handle , and it sends you wild.

You have no answer to anyhting i say , or the fact i can quite clearly sit on the sidelines of your politics , calling out truth as i see it without a bone in any fight between you and your opposites in the english conservatives , or the fact im not interested in your parliament , your ideologies , your political dogma and all the rest.

The fact we scottish have come to see the light with the "british imperial labour party" , in the fact the english left have no interest in us outside of the fact they want us as nothing more than pure voting fodder , has you in bits.

Theres nothing fraudulent about me good old. I think this is more of your reverse psychology. You and your ilk are the frauds.

Even your own countrymen can see that fact , which is why according to the latest polls , depsite the shitshow that is the johnson tory government  , you still cannot poll a majority government. That in itself speaks volumes.......

[johnofgwent]

But for a start since 1979 Labour have only been in power for twelve years..

In england. During which time they privatised bits pf the NHS Maggie would not have dared, and did F@@@ all to reverse the utter lack of NHS dentists caused by Maggie's spat that made them all leave and register with Denplan

[Good old]

In fairness to him, you have always come across as someone who - if you had to choose between the Tories and Labour -would always prefer the former. That being the case you will always provoke that kind of response from any Labour loyalist of a kind who sees thing in tribalist party political terms.

I see things in the terms of not having big C Tory governments for ever more. As I see it most suggestions put up round here , will only ever amount to throwing stones from a distance. When to beat them or even get a draw , you must get close , copy their moves and techniques , whilst slowly dismantling them. If that sounds tribal so be it.

[Good old]

wheni have time , i will dissect this guff tomorrow if i can.

As ever , when faced with labours inglorious past , you run off screaming in true form but what about the tories , and waffling on about them to me , someone who has never supproted or voted tory.

A litany of puerile excuses that people see through.

You dissect all you like. You only ever talk Tory good. much better than Labour.  if they mean nothing to you ,then why go to the extreme lengths you do to educate all those that will listen , that they are so much preferable to Labour.? Your claim to not care for the Tories is fraudulent , as I have said before.  If anyone waffles it has to be you , page after page of it.
Both parties , have not been perfect. And you think I should not say that ,by reminding you of Tory failure, past and present. Dissect all you like mate, I find it hard to see why anyone wouldn't see through you.

[srb7677]

As ever , when faced with labours inglorious past , you run off screaming in true form but what about the tories , and waffling on about them to me , someone who has never supproted or voted tory.

In fairness to him, you have always come across as someone who - if you had to choose between the Tories and Labour -would always prefer the former. That being the case you will always provoke that kind of response from any Labour loyalist of a kind who sees thing in tribalist party political terms.

[Thomas]

No I am not saying that our present situation has nothing to do with New Labour, every government has left some sort of mark. But for a start since 1979 Labour have only been in power for twelve years.. simple maths tells that the Tories. Have spent at least thirty years achieving what ? I would like to know? It was Heath, that took us into Europe, it was Maggie, that followed up .and took it forward , it was Major, that defended it to this day. And I live in a mainly rural extremely Tory area and I can tell you that in the main the people that made the most use of immigration, and welcomed it most as a cheap Labour opportunity were the Tories that now say immigration not us. And if it wasn't for Nigel, and UKIP,  there would be no Brexit , because these fellers didn't want it and still don't. And they couldn't be further away from Blair, or Starmer . But my god how they enjoyed having those people here.j
The colossal debt you talk of was not Labours  fault completely, and would have most certainly happened with the Tories in. As it is well recorded they had constantly called for less restraints on the banks. So it may well have landed on us sooner.
The Tories had made just as many serious mistakes in the financial activities of this country in their twenty odd years in power. And nothing changes , just this past year or so , billions down the drain in tests and equipment for Covid. Even the  cutting in the period 2010/19 could be considered reckless , there was no money tree they said, right up to the day , Boris, was threatening to spend in more or less the same way as Corbyn, had promised. The Money tree had miraculously appeared, and my god we get some idea of how big it was under generous Ritchie.  Yes he had to actually borrow , £400 billion and it was warranted, but then so was the £100 billion  back in 2008/10. But what happened to that £800 billion they borrowed before covid raised its head?  When according to them there was no money tree.

wheni have time , i will dissect this guff tomorrow if i can.

As ever , when faced with labours inglorious past , you run off screaming in true form but what about the tories , and waffling on about them to me , someone who has never supproted or voted tory.

A litany of puerile excuses that people see through.

[Thomas]

Fair point, but then the House of Lords is itself  largely a House of Has Beens and Croniest.

if its that unimportant steve , why has labour spent a century bringing it up in practially most manifectos promising to abolish it ?

That someone like him sits in the Lords is of course a disgrace, but it is not the first nor the last time that such types get sent there. Yes he has a vote, but probably little influence.

I would say he does have much influence , which is why he doesnt face the music over his many allegations aganst him. He could prabably sheks labours foundations to the core , and take others with him , which is why such types largely get away with stuff .

Lord steele hinted the same about cyril smith if i recall , he knew stuff had went on but couldnt say anything at the time publicly.

You can be sure that if there is meaningful change on the table anywhere, Reid will oppose it.

Is that not the labour party mantra to the core past and present?

You only need to lsiten to good old and co to hear the same old same old guff we ave been hearing for years. Stick with us jam tomorrow , lessons learned nothing changes.