Labour Party elder statesman Baron (Wreck it and Run) Reid Warts & all

[Good old]

We did do, but Boris turned up and said don't worry the establishment has been reformed by me and you can vote for us again which is a bit like what Trump did. Because we both know really it was about making sure the choice was removed. As for pushing the raving looney out of the way, what would be the point? let them say as they will, I don't feel the need to bring them down, or I would be acting on behalf of the establishment which maybe you won't get, no let them all have their moment of glory and taste of power. I have had my fair share.

Sorry sheep, but if referendum was thought to be  the answer,  then it has to be a ref on every decision. How do you get past the problem of having another ref, on how to implement each ref decision.? Who would organise each ref ? Oh , what about a group of people? A governing group.? Or maybe one person, the almighty.? Organise, isn't that what government is? 
And most of all there will never come a day when everyone wants the same things, and on  that note the human condition demands conflict. And that's about all you will get, unless you are governed out of it.

[Sheepy]

The only thing I disagree with there is. They do  get a choice, and if someone could offer a different route ,who knows.Every election multiple choice is offered. If someone actually had the answer , maybe they should push the raving loony out of the way , and make a big impression on the electorate.

We did do, but Boris turned up and said don't worry the establishment has been reformed by me and you can vote for us again which is a bit like what Trump did. Because we both know really it was about making sure the choice was removed. As for pushing the raving looney out of the way, what would be the point? let them say as they will, I don't feel the need to bring them down, or I would be acting on behalf of the establishment which maybe you won't get, no let them all have their moment of glory and taste of power. I have had my fair share.

[Good old]

Which has taken over every part of their lives where they don't even get the choice of voting for anything different see I know it. They don't actually have any say over it.

The only thing I disagree with there is. They do  get a choice, and if someone could offer a different route ,who knows.Every election multiple choice is offered. If someone actually had the answer , maybe they should push the raving loony out of the way , and make a big impression on the electorate.

[Sheepy]

Of course it is a case of the same old, it's capitalism. It is two sides of same cheek.

Which has taken over every part of their lives where they don't even get the choice of voting for anything different see I know it. They don't actually have any say over it.

[Good old]

This is laughable as well from a blairite such as yourself who one minute is trying and desperately failing to sell the same old guff of two parties who are so close together that new labour were labelled the red tories in scotland and england now trying to throw in the slur to our conversation of scotland being a one party state.

England appears to be the one party state , from my perspective , with you applauding the fact keir starmer appears to be yet again offering up tory lite to the electorate .

The only major difference i can see with johnsons tories appears to be over europe , apart from that , starmer is routinely mocked as a nodding dog basically saying he would do the same as johnson on each and every issues except europe but only do it better , or some such guff.

You will have to do much better at politcs same old than screaming tory bad one minute , your a tory the next to anyone who disagrees with labour , to then throwing in the old one party state slur.

Of course it is a case of the same old, it's capitalism. It is two sides of same cheek. It is no feeling different in Scotland, other than the issue of independence . And you or anyone else voting for any entity that has one of your pet ideas in its manifesto. Will never dislodge the governing party , whether that be Scotland , or England , it merely spreads any opposition all over the place. And if it's bad anything you do that with nobs on . And the fact you think you don't says it all. 

[Thomas]

  One party might suit you it doesn't suit me.

This is laughable as well from a blairite such as yourself who one minute is trying and desperately failing to sell the same old guff of two parties who are so close together that new labour were labelled the red tories in scotland and england now trying to throw in the slur to our conversation of scotland being a one party state.

England appears to be the one party state , from my perspective , with you applauding the fact keir starmer appears to be yet again offering up tory lite to the electorate .

The only major difference i can see with johnsons tories appears to be over europe , apart from that , starmer is routinely mocked as a nodding dog basically saying he would do the same as johnson on each and every issues except europe but only do it better , or some such guff.

You will have to do much better at politcs same old than screaming tory bad one minute , your a tory the next to anyone who disagrees with labour , to then throwing in the old one party state slur.

[Thomas]

We know where  Scotland stands.You are the one that reduces this to Englands politics.

England makes up 82 % of the uk politics , or didnt you know that?

By offering any change in Scotland as an option of change even in

Whit are you gibbering about now? You asked me , a scot , what i would do that different then i told you. Then when you received my answer you didnt like , started waffling on about england and trying to throw despair about , by trying to tell people that there is no hope , and how we must all accept the status quo as everything else is futile.

I say fack that , and so do many others.  Im doing something about it.

So are you fellow countrymen , starting by voting brexit and voting in parties to enact their wishes going forward. You on the other hand simply waffle on a load of olf bollocks about tory bad and labour only alternative , and you wonder why we laugh at you.

The age old waffle of Tory bad.

You said it. Sums up the entirety of your political discourse , which is ignore all the difficult stuff and try and boil it down to tory bad labour alternative. How we laughed.

Not the pages of Labour bad propaganda pictures ,totally biased articles from any source.

I am biased against labour . You are biased against tories, everyone on here is biased for their politcal view. ....and ?

I can go with multi party politics, but we don't have a system that allows it to govern. So until we do it's a non starter.

You brought in the system that enabled multi party politic in the devolved nations , and even more stupidly , its hurting labour at westmisnter.

On top of that , if multi party politics wasnt working , it wouldnt have forced the tories into backing brexit for fear of ukip/brexit party.

So saying its a non starter is clearly rubbish , when mulit party politics has had a massive effect at both uk and devolved level for  years. Sorry you dont like it , but tough , its only going to break down the old two party system even more as the years go by.

You haven't escaped anything other than England if you gain independence, .You have another cheek of the same arse, slightly left in general.

Boo hoo , and hopefully when scotland goes it facks up labours ambitions of riding the old two party stitch up even more.

It must horrify you having to fight for peoples votes and rise above political discourse like tory bad .Imagine actually having to offer policy and viable alternatives instead of  waffling on a load of auld cac.

And worse still as of yet not a frigging clue what you move them on with if or when they ain't coming up with the goods. So in basic terms not much change ,except you don't have an opposition even as viable as there is at Westminster.

can you translate this into english please.

One party might suit you it doesn't suit me.

In the last ten years , while you were stuck blindly loyal to new labour , i have been voting for numerous parties in the multi party system you brought into scotland.

So what exactly are you gibbering about one party for ? Can you at least try and talk some sense in plain english without the waffle and cryptic rubbish that your posts are full of?

I have voted snp green and alba , and the scottish government is currently a coalition. Which one party are you reffering to and why?

[Good old]

You were talking in uk terms , and then when i offer you an alternative yet again sideswerve into talking about England. I addressed that in my answer above.Your countrymen told you that in 2016 remember?

The big referendum labour not only wanted to deny anyone having a say on , but then spent 3 years trying to stop being implemented. Freedom from the EU. A massive hill the labour party stil cannot climb ,  and a dead weight around starmers neck.Brexit party , ukip and the tories did that while labour tried to stop england from becoming independent from the EU. It will never bee forgiven .

You are a status quoer who wants to try and keep politics in both the uk and your country england in the cosy two party stitch up , and the only improvement you want is the odds stacked i in the labour parties favour.

You dont want the public thinking or offereing any opinion , and merely want to try and debase political discussion each and every time into the age old waffle of tory bad.

Multi party politics and the big questions like brexit scot indy and much more are something you can't deal with , so try and rubbish it at every turn. The worlds changed mate , sorry you can't accept the new political reality , but it will carry on changing wether you get on board or not.
Leave what to the tories? Same old comes out wioth the same old yet again. The tories arent in charge of scotland or wales or northern ireland. Did you miss devolution that your party were forced to bring in twenty years ago or sumfing?
Instead of asking a scotsman to hold your hand and offer you an alternative , why not ask a frenchman or american? I suspect if they did  , once again , you wouldnt be interested.

We know where  Scotland stands.You are the one that reduces this to Englands politics. By offering any change in Scotland as an option of change even in  The age old waffle of Tory bad. Not the pages of Labour bad propaganda pictures ,totally biased articles from any source. And you think you have reason to laugh.? I can go with multi party politics, but we don't have a system that allows it to govern. So until we do it's a non starter. 
You haven't escaped anything other than England if you gain independence, .You have another cheek of the same arse, slightly left in general. And worse still as of yet not a frigging clue what you move them on with if or when they ain't coming up with the goods. So in basic terms not much change ,except you don't have an opposition even as viable as there is at Westminster.
In the long term you are just as stuck once the euphoria of independence wains.  One party might suit you it doesn't suit me.

[Thomas]

This is the desperate plea from centrists in the party to us on the left in spite of everything. They constantly try and sell themselves with light praise of a kind that goes something like "Only we can beat the Tories and anyone is better than the Tories". AKA the "we are not quite as shite as them" appeal. They fail utterly to understood that most of us want something to actually vote for that we can believe in that will make a difference or we won't bother. They also utterly fail to grasp the lesson that many of us learned years ago. That is that if we keep voting for them on the basis of them being a little less crap than the Tories, they have zero motivation to be anything better than a little less crap than the Tories. The only way we can force them to give us something worth voting for is to withhold our votes until they do, even at the cost of Tory victory in the meantime. That's what happened to them in 2010 and I'd hoped they'd learned their lesson. But clearly not.

So to those who say we should vote for them anyway because they are a bit less crap than the Tories, I say this. Not good enough mate. Give us meaningful change for the better, something like the majority of the 2017 manifesto, and you'll get my attention. Until then, I'm not interested.

As i said steve , we should change his name from good old to same old . It really is desperate stuff that he is trying and failing to punt.

We have talked at length for over ten year now how this new labour fag paper between us and the tories stunt no longer works as it once did for blair a quarter of a century ago. These so called centrists really do lack imagination and drive.

[srb7677]

Same olds political discourse is as follows.

This is the desperate plea from centrists in the party to us on the left in spite of everything. They constantly try and sell themselves with light praise of a kind that goes something like "Only we can beat the Tories and anyone is better than the Tories". AKA the "we are not quite as shite as them" appeal. They fail utterly to understood that most of us want something to actually vote for that we can believe in that will make a difference or we won't bother. They also utterly fail to grasp the lesson that many of us learned years ago. That is that if we keep voting for them on the basis of them being a little less crap than the Tories, they have zero motivation to be anything better than a little less crap than the Tories. The only way we can force them to give us something worth voting for is to withhold our votes until they do, even at the cost of Tory victory in the meantime. That's what happened to them in 2010 and I'd hoped they'd learned their lesson. But clearly not.

So to those who say we should vote for them anyway because they are a bit less crap than the Tories, I say this. Not good enough mate. Give us meaningful change for the better, something like the majority of the 2017 manifesto, and you'll get my attention. Until then, I'm not interested.

[Thomas]

This is England.

meanwhile in England and scotland.......

[Thomas]

Same olds political discourse is as follows.

[Thomas]

You call that an answer? An alternative.?

You were talking in uk terms , and then when i offer you an alternative yet again sideswerve into talking about England. I addressed that in my answer above.

This is England. Mate who do we want freedom from?

Your countrymen told you that in 2016 remember?

The big referendum labour not only wanted to deny anyone having a say on , but then spent 3 years trying to stop being implemented. Freedom from the EU. A massive hill the labour party stil cannot climb ,  and a dead weight around starmers neck.

What party will offer us independence ,from who going forward?

Brexit party , ukip and the tories did that while labour tried to stop england from becoming independent from the EU. It will never bee forgiven .

You say I only want more of the same, no I want some of the same with improvements as we go along

You are a status quoer who wants to try and keep politics in both the uk and your country england in the cosy two party stitch up , and the only improvement you want is the odds stacked i in the labour parties favour.

You dont want the public thinking or offereing any opinion , and merely want to try and debase political discussion each and every time into the age old waffle of tory bad.

Multi party politics and the big questions like brexit scot indy and much more are something you cant deal with , so try and rubbish it at every turn. The worlds changed mate , sorry you cant accept the new political reality , but it will carry on changing wether you get on board or not.

If we sit back and leave it to the Tories,

Leave what to the tories? Same old comes out wioth the same old yet again. The tories arent in charge of scotland or wales or northern ireland. Did you miss devolution that your party were forced to bring in twenty years ago or sumfing?

You obviously are extremely limited in what progress for English politics should be.

Instead of asking a scotsman to hold your hand and offer you an alternative , why not ask a frenchman or american? I suspect if they did  , once again , you wouldnt be interested.

[Good old]

I must have lost count the amount of times i have offered an alternative , for me its scottish indy. What part of that do you not understand?

Further , once scotland has gone its not up to me as a foreigner to offer you an alternative. You need to work that out with your fellows.

Clearly though i wont hold my breath as we can all see you arent listning to anyone , never mind your fellow english.

For you its more of the same old same old  , and holding your counry back from politicall progressing. Thats a good name come to think of it .....instead of good old , it should be same old.

You call that an answer? An alternative.? Scottish, Indy? This is England. Mate who do we want freedom from?
What party will offer us independence ,from who going forward?  
You say I only want more of the same, no I want some of the same with improvements as we go along. If we sit back and leave it to the Tories, that will be an even more tedious experience than it could be with them getting rested now and again.
Now so far the only progress you offer is Scots Indy, English, Indy maybe, what from Wales? You obviously are extremely limited in what progress for English politics should be.

[Thomas]

There is the nub of it. You have expanded everything but, no alternative. .

I must have lost count the amount of times i have offered an alternative , for me its scottish indy. What part of that do you not understand?

Further , once scotland has gone its not up to me as a foreigner to offer you an alternative. You need to work that out with your fellows.

Clearly though i wont hold my breath as we can all see you arent listning to anyone , never mind your fellow english.

For you its more of the same old same old  , and holding your country back from politically progressing. Thats a good name come to think of it .....instead of good old , it should be same old.

Its not about you being interested in the common good , more its merely about stitching up the vote in labours favour in any old system that works to their advantage.