The EU. Authoritarianism versus democracy.

[srb7677]

If Starmer had any sense he would dress his front bench in Union Jack waistcoats and demand that Ode to Joy be banned as an illegal import. But he he ain't. He is just a dour lump with an open goal in front of him which, against all odds, he might well miss.

Starmer's strategy appears to be just sitting there, saying and doing nothing but uttering empty platitudes and slogans and soundbites and trying to look a little bit less shit than the Tories. That this pitiful strategy is having any success at all is entirely due to the immense efforts of Boris to make himself and the Tories look as shit as possible. But the success of Starmer's pitiful strategy - such as it is - will never survive a change of Tory leader.

It is never enough for governments to lose elections. Oppositions have to win them by offering something inspiring enough to get millions to want to vote for them. But Starmer is to inspiration what a small piece of lettuce is to the quenching of hunger.

[Borchester]

And off we go people on this thread and others equating Boris being a knob and drinks partying with the idea of leaving the eu a mistake and disaster.

Quite.

Boris jumped on the Brexit bandwagon because it was the one that would get him into Number 10. The Civil Service and large chunks of the business community wanted us to remain because Brexit was uncharted territory.

And none of that matters because a majority of the population saw their first loyalty as being to the UK,  not Brussels. Boris has spent most of his political career dancing on ice flows and now that he has reached the bank, promptly fallen arse over tea kettle and back into the river. Which is tough on the Fat Controller, but does not change the game. The next Tory leader will have to come up with a plan to beat Covid (which is boring the nation to death) and a promise to bomb Brussels because that is the way God meant things to be.

If Starmer had any sense he would dress his front bench in Union Jack waistcoats and demand that Ode to Joy be banned as an illegal import. But he he ain't. He is just a dour lump with an open goal in front of him which, against all odds, he might well miss.

[cromwell]

See I told you that you would see it in the end. All in your own time.

Well I've always thought that way and said so in the past , I guess how we change it is our difference depends on how it happens.

[Sheepy]

And off we go people on this thread and others equating Boris being a knob and drinks partying with the idea of leaving the eu a mistake and disaster.

Had the vote gone the other way and we remained we'd still have tossers in Westminster.....the civil service who believe themselves a different class to whom  the rules plebs must adhere to doesn't apply..

Brussels is just Westminster on a larger and more remote scale.

See I told you that you would see it in the end. All in your own time. 

[cromwell]

And off we go people on this thread and others equating Boris being a knob and drinks partying with the idea of leaving the eu a mistake and disaster.

Had the vote gone the other way and we remained we'd still have tossers in Westminster.....the civil service who believe themselves a different class to whom  the rules plebs must adhere to doesn't apply..

Brussels is just Westminster on a larger and more remote scale.

[Sheepy]

Well, you probably didn't notice as a remain voter, but the EU is an Authoritarian body and have constantly fought against democracy on behalf of Authoritarianism and central control.  

[Borchester]

Say what you like about Maastricht, the truth is continental Europe by and large want to strengthen the EU, Macron wants to enhance it and Eastern Europe are more than happy to take Germanys money. They all have a veto and Poland and Hungary are getting away with human rights issues and sovereignty laws despite it all.

Quite.

The East Europeans don't even stay bought.

[papasmurf]

Don't look at the EU now if you think there is a mess going on. Look at Downing Street.

That plus the other converging multiple disasters.

[B0ycey]

Say what you like about Maastricht, the truth is continental Europe by and large want to strengthen the EU, Macron wants to enhance it and Eastern Europe are more than happy to take Germanys money. They all have a veto and Poland and Hungary are getting away with human rights issues and sovereignty laws despite it all. 

It does annoy me that Brexiteers can't help but hope the EU will fail to justify their own actions for leaving the club. But everything I read about Europe right now since Trump and perhaps it started with Brexit is Europe are becoming more unified, beginning to move towards becoming a superpower and are taking their own security seriously. When Biden took over, he slashed tariffs on EU steal and kept them for their supposed special relationship friends the UK because of the importance of the EU compared to the UK. Since Brexit we made one deal from scratch with Australia and getting our ass handed to us with India just to get better trade with them. We are sending half empty lorries back over the Channel and if it wasn't for Covid, we would all be seeing what a clusterfuck Brexit was. Soon we will be changing Polish workers with Asian Indians and that isn't even mentioning the labour shortages in key sectors in transport, care and warehousing because we sent everyone home. 

Don't look at the EU now if you think there is a mess going on. Look at Downing Street.

[cromwell]

I think you just about said it all.

[srb7677]

The EU faces a crisis which at the moment it is barely reacting to and trying to ignore, hoping that it will go away. And that is that whilst most of it's western and northern EU member states are solid democracies with sound economies, most of the nations of the east seem to be sliding headlong towards right wing authoritarianism, whilst Greece and to a lesser extent Italy are economic basket cases.

The EU, originally the EEC, was formed first and foremost as an economic union designed to stitch the European economies together in ways that boosted economic prosperity and made war between them unthinkable. But a secondary motive was to create a bulwak of democratic states, fostering democratic freedoms, and making these a condition of membership. At the supra national level of course the EU does not really function as a fully formed democracy at all, which is a major and justified criticism. Though there is in this the issue of the common interest versus national sovereignty. It would be highly problematical at the supra-national level to make the EU more democratic without threatening the national sovereignty of the individual member states. Making it more democratic at the supra-national level would go a long way towards laying the foundations for a future United States of Europe. Which is one major reason why the UK always opposed any move towards greater supra-national democracy whilst still a member. And why those remaining members with long and strong national traditions like France will continue to oppose that.

However, at the level of individual national states, the EU has been a great democratic success until now, reinforcing the idea of democracy within individual member states, and encouraging democracy in states outside it as a condition of eventually joining. But now there is a problem. Many of the existing member states of Eastern Europe are moving away from democracy towards authoritarianism. The EU cannot really exist in it's current form if this drift continues in the east. Staying quiet about it and hoping the problem will go away is not a viable solution. Eventually if this drift towards authoritarianism in the east continues, an unavoidable crisis will hit the EU. Eventually, to secure democracy in it's member states, many of the states of Eastern Europe might have to leave or be forced out if they do not move back towards democratic freedoms.

Meanwhile, the economic basket case that is Greece in the south serves as a potential warning to what can happen to poorer countries who think the EU is always going to be some automatic guarantor of prosperity. In the coming decade the EU has a lot of sorting out to do, and may have to retreat back to a smaller group of mostly western and northern European nations.