Is anyone surprised? Ukraine invaded

[Scott777]

Rubbish. We have a moral duty to allow war refugees to come here as we have always done. If you think that is out of order, then you are just one of the usual suspects who far from rising to the occasion, are using the occasion as an excuse to remain in the gutter, morally speaking.

And this, which Sampan kindly brought to our attention.  
https://twitter.com/futurebrain1/status/1498738347518353410

So another point is, how do we know who is fleeing war, or who is an economic migrant?

[Sheepy]

Have we ?

Or more to the point, how does today relate to the past.

We allowed all manner of refugees into Britain 85 or so years ago because they were being shot on French and Belgian soil by an invading, occupying German army.

No one is (yet) shooting those Ukrainians who make it to Poland, or any other country beyond Ukraine's borders.

The fact is, therefore, those who have reached safety in the EU are not (for the moment) being hunted and killed by Russian shock troops inside the EU and are therefore in a safe country and have no RIGHT to proceed further. Indeed under the UNHCR treatybwe signed up to the idea was such displaced people should be given safe harbour in non combatant countries close to their own so that they can be repatriated.

I'm all for helping them. They can have my recipe to make ricin if they like. But the treaties we signed don't grant them free entry to Britain until they get shot at in Gdansk....

Anyway, you knew the rules because I told you, if we didn't roll over and do just as they say this time, they would wind up the neo liberals and another invasion would be imminent. They don't take it well being told to feck off. 

[johnofgwent]

Rubbish. We have a moral duty to allow war refugees to come here as we have always done. 

Have we ?

Or more to the point, how does today relate to the past.

We allowed all manner of refugees into Britain 85 or so years ago because they were being shot on French and Belgian soil by an invading, occupying German army.

No one is (yet) shooting those Ukrainians who make it to Poland, or any other country beyond Ukraine's borders.

The fact is, therefore, those who have reached safety in the EU are not (for the moment) being hunted and killed by Russian shock troops inside the EU and are therefore in a safe country and have no RIGHT to proceed further. Indeed under the UNHCR treatybwe signed up to the idea was such displaced people should be given safe harbour in non combatant countries close to their own so that they can be repatriated.

I'm all for helping them. They can have my recipe to make ricin if they like. But the treaties we signed don't grant them free entry to Britain until they get shot at in Gdansk....

[Scott777]

On the brightside the masters of propaganda are going to have a chat with everyone and try and calm you neo liberals down a bit.
China suggests how Russia and Ukraine can make peace — RT Russia & Former Soviet Union

That has to be it.  You would think all the protesters in London, with their 'stop the war' placards, would agree to this.  But...

[Sheepy]

On the brightside the masters of propaganda are going to have a chat with everyone and try and calm you neo liberals down a bit. 
China suggests how Russia and Ukraine can make peace — RT Russia & Former Soviet Union

[Scott777]

Rubbish. We have a moral duty to allow war refugees to come here as we have always done. If you think that is out of order, then you are just one of the usual suspects who far from rising to the occasion, are using the occasion as an excuse to remain in the gutter, morally speaking.

I think you over-simplify the facts.  Our government went to war with Iraq.  That contributed to mass migration.  Were we obliged to accept Iraqi immigrants as a result of Tony Blair's decisions?  Our government made promises to Ukraine, to protect them.  They lied.  Should we be obliged to accept refugees that are the result of decisions of corrupt politicians?  I think not.

[Scott777]

Of course you have evidence for this? Or is it just another invention of your conspiray theorist mates. Why would Ukrainians kill other Ukrainians when there are plenty of examples of Russians doing it? Like all such guff it doesn't make sense.

No I don't.  As I said, I heard it.  Now, do you have evidence of a 'made-up' genocide?  Or is it just a conspiracy theory?

[B0ycey]

You mean the bullshit excuse used to justify the invasion? The real reason is Putin thinks Ukraine should be Russian whatever it's people think, and fears it aligning with the west. He is prepared to use force to achieve the former and prevent the latter. But he needs some bullshit or other to tell the Russian people.

I don't know, after doing some research on this it does seem there were some offences in Donbass. I should state I haven't gone into detail to find out the whole story. Whether that deserved an invasion, perhaps not. But it does need to be looked into I guess within the UN.

[Sampanviking]

Of course you have evidence for this? Or is it just another invention of your conspiray theorist mates. Why would Ukrainians kill other Ukrainians when there are plenty of examples of Russians doing it? Like all such guff it doesn't make sense.

This is due to the current practice of handing out Assault Rifles to civilians that come forward and ask for one.
Some of these are headcases and others are gangsters. In addition to this, you know have a large number of totally untrained civilians with machine guns roaming city streets and jumping at their own shadows. Even Lyse Doucett reported that she found yesterday morning a car with a mans body who had been shot dead on suspicion of being a Russian saboteur.

[srb7677]

Boris is out of order.

Rubbish. We have a moral duty to allow war refugees to come here as we have always done. If you think that is out of order, then you are just one of the usual suspects who far from rising to the occasion, are using the occasion as an excuse to remain in the gutter, morally speaking.

[srb7677]

It isn't my claim, but the reason for the invasion Cromwel

You mean the bullshit excuse used to justify the invasion? The real reason is Putin thinks Ukraine should be Russian whatever it's people think, and fears it aligning with the west. He is prepared to use force to achieve the former and prevent the latter. But he needs some bullshit or other to tell the Russian people.

[srb7677]

I've recently heard a few false flags involving Ukrainian killing other Ukrainians, and claiming it was the Russians.

Of course you have evidence for this? Or is it just another invention of your conspiray theorist mates. Why would Ukrainians kill other Ukrainians when there are plenty of examples of Russians doing it? Like all such guff it doesn't make sense.

[B0ycey]

Denazification? You do know Zelensky has Jewish heritage and lost family to the nazis?

It isn't my claim, but the reason for the invasion Cromwell. Russia aren't going to go home without that part of the mission being accomplished. As I said, I think that is why we should be hopeful in talks because I don't see why Zelensky cannot concede here.

[cromwell]

Well whatever. I think Russia will leave once they have accomplished their mission given talks with Ukraine actually went better than I was expecting. That is denazification and human right abuses. If they wanted complete control of Ukraine and all out war, it would make no sense to negotiate at all. Russia have a convy surrounding Kiev, they will take the capital if Zelensky doesn't compromise. But whatever the genocide claims are, I can't see why Zelensky can't compromise here given I am guessing he isn't against the Russian language be spoken in Ukraine.

Denazification? You do know Zelensky has Jewish heritage and lost family to the nazis?

[Scott777]

Give me strength,oh great some Tw** invades my country starts destroying it what an opportunity to go to the UK.

Scott give your head a wobble,

I wobbled a bit.  What you call 'destroying it' is very far from what happened in Iraq.  I'm just saying, you can't assume refugees will be fleeing destruction or Putin.  If you invite people, they will come, just like if you make the UK very appealing for anyone else, then you get mass immigration.  Boris is out of order.