Is anyone surprised? Ukraine invaded

[Good old]

What you talking about? I have no issue with anyone saying Putin shouldn't have invaded or that it was illegal, trumped up whatever. But what I can't agree with is thinking we in the West are any better. If anything Putin is playing the same lines we used when we invaded Sovereign states. Genocide, regime change, freedom, protecting the people, security blah blah blah.

As for stability, how exactly has bombing the shit in the ME been stable? We now have record crossings in the Channel from genuine refugees that we created. It might have escaped you intention but Ukraine the opposite side to Europe to us and is the Soviet sphere of the continent. If we were concerned about stability we should never have offered Ukraine the carrot of NATO membership. For months now Russia have said they are against NATO expansion and all we have done is told them to get over it. As of yet we haven't gave diplomacy a chance because we haven't talked with Russia on equal terms. We have told them they are paranoid and to just accept NATO on their doorstep.

I don't know what the future holds and I suspect Russia will now be investing their military in controlling Ukraine indefinitely so they won't be able to expand much further than that given Afghanistan has taught us that insurgency is a bitch amongst itself. So I am not too worried about war in Europe and I suspect NATO states are currently reinforcing their borders in any case making such a war unwinnable for Russia even if they did want to regain the whole of the Soviet empire. So, no this was never about stability. This was about bluff. We were hoping Russia would bend over and take the shit we gave them, they took the open invitation to invade given we basically said we wouldn't fight in Ukraine and now he took that bait and is running wild. To be honest we should have been honest to Zelensky from the start. We should have told him NATO isn't an option for him and that he better negotiate with Russia before it was too late. Well it is too late now. Ukraine is going to fall in the next few days and Zelensky doesn't have any cards to play.

I  am not saying you do say what Putin, does is  right or legal. My point is that knowing of our own historical and more up to date transgressions, no matter where in the world those transgressions may have occurred.  is of little consequence in the politics of European domination. As I said in another post , on the basis of that approach ,Hitler could have done no wrong,and it follows that Putin ,will be doing no wrong , if we are as concerned about our past conduct as we are about his present and past conduct.
Yes diplomatically we may have failed ,we certainly did  in 1939. That can not cripple our response . It's not war yet. But I suggest that is up to Putin,as to what comes next. He is the one actually risking the open use of overwhelming military force on a less powerful near neighbour.
Russia.has said , Putin, has said , gives us what we want or else. Even extended to a threat of more suffering than we would ever have known, if we should try and stop him.
That's a good place to start diplomacy,talks, I don't think. It's commendable to see other points of view , and I don't dispute Putin might have been headed off if the west was not so complacent. But it is what it is . And it can be taken now that if Ukraine concerns him for the reasons he has given, then just as in all Russian history, the status of everyone of his near neighbours concerns  him. And lay somewhere within his ambitions for Russian expansion , armed or otherwise.
That as it has always proved to be is a threat to the peace of all Europe, even the world.
We will see what develops. Seeing his point of view will only help if he himself is willing to amend his ambition. If he  does not . And he continues to make moves that threaten to impinge on the way of life and actual sovereignty of his European neighbours then why he should do that, is going to be of little use in making sure Our point of view is not overwhelmed. By an, as great or greater concern for our own record,  The biggest problem now is we can not now trust him to leave the rest of his neighbours alone. And if Europe, is to remain relatively peaceful. He has to whether we can see his point of view or not.

[B0ycey]

The Iraq, factor means next to f**k all in the context of War in Europe. The U.K. were and had been worldwide predators . The Brits invented consecration camps. It's not and ever has been ALL about morality , if it was Hitler could have done what he liked, because our own morality has never been out of the question. it's about stability . And the prevention of an outright top dog. It's about not having to play by someone else's tune. It's a simple matter of knowing which side your bread is butter on even if the bread has some mould on it. The alarm is because Putin, makes  noises that say he could beat the system, and upset the status quo. We have to say otherwise, even though we have form. To not do so is only going to encourage him . I can just see him at the end of that frigging great table, saying to his minion this is a dodle they are so fair minded.

What you talking about? I have no issue with anyone saying Putin shouldn't have invaded or that it was illegal, trumped up whatever. But what I can't agree with is thinking we in the West are any better. If anything Putin is playing the same lines we used when we invaded Sovereign states. Genocide, regime change, freedom, protecting the people, security blah blah blah.

As for stability, how exactly has bombing the shit in the ME been stable? We now have record crossings in the Channel from genuine refugees that we created. It might have escaped you intention but Ukraine the opposite side to Europe to us and is the Soviet sphere of the continent. If we were concerned about stability we should never have offered Ukraine the carrot of NATO membership. For months now Russia have said they are against NATO expansion and all we have done is told them to get over it. As of yet we haven't gave diplomacy a chance because we haven't talked with Russia on equal terms. We have told them they are paranoid and to just accept NATO on their doorstep.

I don't know what the future holds and I suspect Russia will now be investing their military in controlling Ukraine indefinitely so they won't be able to expand much further than that given Afghanistan has taught us that insurgency is a bitch amongst itself. So I am not too worried about war in Europe and I suspect NATO states are currently reinforcing their borders in any case making such a war unwinnable for Russia even if they did want to regain the whole of the Soviet empire. So, no this was never about stability. This was about bluff. We were hoping Russia would bend over and take the shit we gave them, they took the open invitation to invade given we basically said we wouldn't fight in Ukraine and now he took that bait and is running wild. To be honest we should have been honest to Zelensky from the start. We should have told him NATO isn't an option for him and that he better negotiate with Russia before it was too late. Well it is too late now. Ukraine is going to fall in the next few days and Zelensky doesn't have any cards to play.

[Good old]

Did Snake Island get attacked by a Russian Warship, or is that story just made up propaganda?
I must say, evidence of much happening seems a bit thin on the ground. Is the Internet blocked in Ukraine?

https://www.scotsman.com/news/world/soldiers-who-stood-ground-against-russian-warship-to-be-named-heroes-of-ukraine-3585845

According to this they did . And thirteen Ukrainians died whilst telling them to clear off using the F word . May they rest in peace , and their murderers never rest.

[Barry]

Did Snake Island get attacked by a Russian Warship, or is that story just made up propaganda?
I must say, evidence of much happening seems a bit thin on the ground. Is the Internet blocked in Ukraine?

[Good old]

Just been out getting a few bits,this has got everybody at the pumps long queues bad tempers horns hooting,shouting........good god what would they do if they were in the Ukraine? 

What would they do if he was actually coming this way?

[Good old]

I suppose my point was @Thomas, that is isn't exactly a fair argument to make claims about a user without backing it up. Not going into great detail in condemnation of the US geopolitical narrative isn't support of it. And I suspect Cromwell knows more about his opinion on the matter than you. If you cannot remember nor are bothered to look up his opinion you simply haven't got an argument. Because I can tell you now most people are against Iraq, Afghanistan etc but unlike you don't write 1000 words every post making every single part of their POV known. They slim it down to the main argument they are making.

As for the topic, in many ways I blame the West for creating this mess. Russia are basically playing the Iraq playback right now and one thing Thomas is absolutely correct about is the West isn't really in the position to condemn Russia right now when we weren't exactly giving a shit about Iraq Afghanistan Libya, Syrias sovereignty. It is clear Putin sees Ukraine being run by Nazis, and listening to Lavrov earlier he is right the US and West wouldn't tolerate genocide with its neighbour given we had no problem toppling Milosevic. I don't know how true it is that the Donbass was preventing Russian from being spoke in their schools, and perhaps it may well be a false flag narrative, but even that would be another thing the West did in regards to WMDs and the fake dossier for invading Iraq I would say. I suppose what I am saying is we really aren't in the position to help Ukraine right now given what we are seeing are actions we invented and used first. And I suspect we need to hope that Putin stop with Ukraine. Because if he tries to invade a NATO country, we are firing nukes at each other and then complaining about who is worse, the US or Russia means f**k all. There be no such thing as Russia or America to make that argument.

The Iraq, factor means next to f**k all in the context of War in Europe. The U.K. were and had been worldwide predators . The Brits invented concentration camps. It's not and ever has been ALL about morality , if it was Hitler could have done what he liked, because our own morality has never been out of the question. it's about stability . And the prevention of an outright top dog. It's about not having to play by someone else's tune. It's a simple matter of knowing which side your bread is butter on even if the bread has some mould on it. The alarm is because Putin, makes  noises that say he could beat the system, and upset the status quo. We have to say otherwise, even though we have form. To not do so is only going to encourage him . I can just see him at the end of that frigging great table, saying to his minion this is a dodle they are so fair minded.

[cromwell]

Just been out getting a few bits,this has got everybody at the pumps long queues bad tempers horns hooting,shouting........good god what would they do if they were in the Ukraine?  

[B0ycey]

I suppose my point was @Thomas, that is isn't exactly a fair argument to make claims about a user without backing it up. Not going into great detail in condemnation of the US geopolitical narrative isn't support of it. And I suspect Cromwell knows more about his opinion on the matter than you. If you cannot remember nor are bothered to look up his opinion you simply haven't got an argument. Because I can tell you now most people are against Iraq, Afghanistan etc but unlike you don't write 1000 words every post making every single part of their POV known. They slim it down to the main argument they are making.

As for the topic, in many ways I blame the West for creating this mess. Russia are basically playing the Iraq playback right now and one thing Thomas is absolutely correct about is the West isn't really in the position to condemn Russia right now when we weren't exactly giving a shit about Iraq Afghanistan Libya, Syrias sovereignty. It is clear Putin sees Ukraine being run by Nazis, and listening to Lavrov earlier he is right the US and West wouldn't tolerate genocide with its neighbour given we had no problem toppling Milosevic. I don't know how true it is that the Donbass was preventing Russian from being spoke in their schools, and perhaps it may well be a false flag narrative, but even that would be another thing the West did in regards to WMDs and the fake dossier for invading Iraq I would say. I suppose what I am saying is we really aren't in the position to help Ukraine right now given what we are seeing are actions we invented and used first. And I suspect we need to hope that Putin stop with Ukraine. Because if he tries to invade a NATO country, we are firing nukes at each other and then complaining about who is worse, the US or Russia means F@@@ all. There be no such thing as Russia or America to make that argument.

[Good old]

With the threat of reelection of Trump or of some other Trumpian isolationist, clearly we in Europe need to stop taking US support for granted and be prepared to be able to stand up to Putin together without the USA if necessary. It pains me as a left winger to have to say this, but Britain and France probably need to keep their nuclear arsenals, and the whole of Europe including ourselves need to increase expenditure on conventional armed forces as well as in the relatively new theatre of cyber warfare. Putin concievably poses a similar existential threat to Hitler or Stalin. We cannot rely on the USA. The whole of Europe might have to rely upon itself and we need to start being ready. The best way to ensure we never need to fight is by having the ability to do so if necessary.

That's pretty well right , Steve.  In so many respects the situation reflects 1935.  I say 35 because that's when Hitler tested his capabilities on Spain. As far as the U.K. is concerned , and Europe in general ,we could not rely on the Yanks then. Not until Hitler, had pretty well turned us over. And to a large part because we watched him develop  without an adequate response, just a minimal one. Similar  to now  except for the nuk capability.
We do need to keep Nuks, but we really should develop  a much bigger sophisticated conventional capability, simply because we really don't want a maniac like Putin forcing us to use the nuk because we were under armed.
In this respect Trump was right , Europe, needs to spend and develop a much bigger contribution to our own defence. I think it's a shame it takes Putin to  ram that home.  It is the North Atlantic treaty, not the European, treaty, we have to rely on it remaining as such. If the Yanks think letting Putin, Russia running rough shod over the capitalist system of Europe could ever be in their interest there really  is no way we can guarantee a Europe against a complete Russian domination, and as said , make your mind up time occurs ,press that button or roll over.
In this crazy world one can never say never, or that a crazy scenario could never happen, but the Yanks can not ignore Russia, or China. They are both a major threat to all US interests. And unless the US  is taken over completely  by mad men , not just a mad president , they will remain the main source of our biggest practical deterrent.

[Good old]

I think you'll find if Putin demanded the UK rejoin the EU so he can run his tanks over us too when he decides to overrun Brussels, Starmer would be more than happy to applaud.

And yes, I see exactly what Thomas is getting at.

Starmer is calling for those who believe democracy over dictatorship to act against Putin while he did, in reality, attempt to throw the baby, the bathwater and the whole bloody bathroom down in front of the 17.4 million hoping to sabotage their democratic voice.

He is a piss poor candidate to plead for action this day.

Perhaps he would like to sign the petition on change.irg to tell Putin to stop.

How the hell would rejoining the EU, make any difference to Putin, running tanks over the U.K.  if he had already done so over Europe? Putin, faces. NATO  when it comes to military. If he makes the mistake of escalation into the rest of Europe, it's NATO, not the EU ,he goes up against .We are one of NATOs main  contributors .
If he got the chance he takes us with everyone else. He would.
Steve , has it spot on. It's a rubbish theory. That Putin,would applaud, because of its value in deception to the  fact that Putin, is the biggest threat in Europe, to Europe. Not the EU. Europe.
And no matter what you accuse Starmer of, he was doing it legal to British parliamentary  behaviour.  And in no way treatening and then carry out a full blown military attack on the Welsh because they wanted out.

[cromwell]

Look cromwell , you and i are on the complete polar opposite of the political divide , but i have more or less always got on well with you , and dont want to fall out with you over somthing as silly as this.

Boycey is talking guff. No change there then , and im sure you dont need him to hold your hand in debate.Not that he could hold anyones hand mind.

I think i have more than made my point. .All the years i have known you online , you can only produce one oblique reference of american( gov) criticism , by producing some empty post that refers to bush and blair , to me , more a critique of two individuals rather than american foreign policy.

All im saying to you , on this forum over the years , you appear to jump on the back of people who you are told are the big bad guys , while being blind in one eye to american and british transgressions around the world , some of which i have mentioned in various threads.

Blind to your own country i understand , thats a given , but america? Why? Sorry dont understand.

Im not calling you a liar at all. Im merely saying i dont ever once recall you slaughtering the yanks the way you do putin and moscow.

I will leave it there mate , and part by saying maybe think a bit more on wider events , Why they are happening and why they get to the stage they are at , and be a bit more carefull of your selective outrage . You come across as being constantly led by the nose by uk media.

No you look Thomas BOycey isn't talking guff you search out my hundreds of posts criticising Putin and while you're at it answer why you were slagging brexiteers off for ruining the eu vision and security post WW2.

And yeah Ive know you a longtime too and you are intelligent know your history and can be quite funny,you can also be very annoying,bombastic and comment on other posters even when they're not on that thread.

For my part I'm not really that bothered and am not falling out with anyone it's just a forum but everyone even if you don't agree is due a hearing.

[johnofgwent]

I am no fan of Keir Starmer nor most of the Labour Party now as you know. But I do believe in fair comment.

But comparing a man who used - perhaps even abused - the democratic parliamentary process in an attempt to frustrate Brexit which a narrow majority of the people - though not your own - voted for, with a vicious psychopathic despot who has launched a military invasion of another state, is a comparison too far. It is not like for like. One is obviously far worse, not to say far more murderous, than the other.

Starmer is a proven liar. Unlike Putin, I would not yet say he is a proven psychopath.

We need to stop the obsession with viewing world events through the prism of the EU issue, which some clearly remain obsessed by.

To compare what is happening in the Ukraine now with any of the trials and tribulations of Brexit is laughable really.

I think you'll find if Putin demanded the UK rejoin the EU so he can run his tanks over us too when he decides to overrun Brussels, Starmer would be more than happy to applaud.

And yes, I see exactly what Thomas is getting at.

Starmer is calling for those who believe democracy over dictatorship to act against Putin while he did, in reality, attempt to throw the baby, the bathwater and the whole bloody bathroom down in front of the 17.4 million hoping to sabotage their democratic voice.

He is a piss poor candidate to plead for action this day.

Perhaps he would like to sign the petition on change.irg to tell Putin to stop.

[srb7677]

Any disarray in the reaction of European nations , is to be expected.  That doesn't make Putin, a genius . Merely a gambler. Yes he will have Ukraine. And no amount of sanctions will stop that.
He has gained the trust of some merely to use that trust against  them. That's not genius,  it's cunning, the behaviour of a common criminal.
His problem now is , he has lost that trust, and in time will find him self  locked out. at the same time he has reinforced the idea that the west should increase its armed capabilities, If he ever actually feared the west he has now got more reason to do so.
What's black and white is what will happen if he keeps relying on force of arms. Europe has so much experience of what happens in those circumstances it more or less a give.

With the threat of reelection of Trump or of some other Trumpian isolationist, clearly we in Europe need to stop taking US support for granted and be prepared to be able to stand up to Putin together without the USA if necessary. It pains me as a left winger to have to say this, but Britain and France probably need to keep their nuclear arsenals, and the whole of Europe including ourselves need to increase expenditure on conventional armed forces as well as in the relatively new theatre of cyber warfare. Putin concievably poses a similar existential threat to Hitler or Stalin. We cannot rely on the USA. The whole of Europe might have to rely upon itself and we need to start being ready. The best way to ensure we never need to fight is by having the ability to do so if necessary.

[Good old]

Russia SWIFT ban 'still on table' -EU financial services commissioner (yahoo.com)
I wonder why that might be good old, the EU are not so quick with sanctions, it wouldn't hurt them would it? or has the German stock market collapsed and inflation running out of control, all so black and white, that Putin is a lunatic.

Any disarray in the reaction of European nations , is to be expected.  That doesn't make Putin, a genius . Merely a gambler. Yes he will have Ukraine. And no amount of sanctions will stop that.
He has gained the trust of some merely to use that trust against  them. That's not genius,  it's cunning, the behaviour of a common criminal.
His problem now is , he has lost that trust, and in time will find him self  locked out. at the same time he has reinforced the idea that the west should increase its armed capabilities, If he ever actually feared the west he has now got more reason to do so.
What's black and white is what will happen if he keeps relying on force of arms. Europe has so much experience of what happens in those circumstances its more or less a given.

[Good old]

WTF are you actually on about now? You are now telling me what i was talking about to get you off yet another hook you are impaled on?

Take it to the other thread  , and i will have a look at your latest guff later.

For now i want to post this.




Look at the hypocrisy in that clowns statement.

A man who was a key figure trying to overturn democracy for three years now talking about standing up for democracy has to be one of the biggest laughs in recent days.

I hope the general public remember this anti democrat when they go to the polls in the coming years.

At least Vladimir Putin is a visual threat to many of the yookay public. Starmer is the invisible threat who wants to hand control of the yookay over to his brussells masters.

I dare say ,Putin, could not have put it better.