Is anyone surprised? Ukraine invaded

[T00ts]

There has been a lot of meddling as Sheepy puts it over the years but somehow I feel Putin would have arrived in the position he is in today anyway. He has a long term wish to re-instate the USSR and the current weak bunch of world leaders has made his job easier. I think it has been obvious all along that Putin is not a negotiator except when it fits his plan. He has negotiated now simply to gain time to get his ducks in a row and has successfully duped all those chattering class leaders who think that talks around a table will work and yet how many times has that failed? 
There are leaders in this world who will never deviate from their set plan, Putin is only one of them. I just don't understand why we are not more savvy with them all. I feel sure that people like Putin simply discard others because of the yellow streak he sees running down their backs. 

[Sheepy]

I guess then it all depends on who is saying what, it is all Vlads fault, I somehow doubt that with all the political meddling that has gone on. 

[cromwell]

I think we can expect that defence spending will rise across Europe,bit late but it's not like they didn't think ahead did they?

[Thomas]

As Vladimir Putin moves once more to menace Ukraine and bring it back into an ancient and spiritual Russian empire of his psychotic imagination, the West – having had eight years' warning of this – will do very little. If it had been serious about this, it would have known that the self-indulgent growth of Nato – now swollen to twice its original size – was always going to act as a serious provocation to a gangster such as Putin. But what did it care? Whenever Putin flexes his muscles assorted Western leaders view it as an opportunity.

Successive US presidents shamelessly stoked the Cold War as a means of maintaining patterns of inequality in the American heartlands. Thus, anyone advocating direct political action against poverty or industrial exploitation risked being exposed as a communist sympathiser. The Cold War was great for the US political elites. It provided the pretext for illegal assassinations and fomenting brutality against regimes they didn't quite fancy. It also made thousands of industrialists and speculators very rich.

Now Boris Johnson has cause to be thankful for Russian belligerence. As he rushes here and there chairing Cobra meetings and firing his water at a whole THREE Russian oligarchs, the Russian president must have wondered why he didn't begin his actions a lot sooner than this.
Anyone reasonably asking why it took Putin's tanks in eastern Ukraine to turn the spotlight on London's three decades of money-laundering will be dismissed as unpatriotic at a time of national crisis. And don't expect anyone to ask about the UK supplying illegal arms to the world's gangster states. Not when you've got a Labour leader who unquestioningly joins forces with a Prime Minister who was telling lies about him just the other week.


This is when you begin to realise once more that the British people will be getting only a hazy version of what's been happening in eastern Europe these last three decades or so. Sir Keir Starmer will milk this one too. His advisers will be telling him to avoid saying anything that could be interpreted as wet or unsound.

https://archive.md/2022.02.24-094053/https://www.thenational.scot/politics/19944475.vladimir-putin-queen-every-situation-seen-opportunity-exploit/

[Thomas]

And only one conducts military invasions on its neighbours.

Talk about lack of awareness from an englishman telling that to a scotsman? How many facking times have you invaded your neighbours?


what about your bosses in washington though? Backing a coup in ukraine in 2014 , expanding a hostile military alliance on russians borders , and helping maintain a nazi infused client in ukraine by flooding them with weapons?

Honestly good old ,i think you should go back to your bed mate. You arent with it today.

[cromwell]

Mod Notice

OK can we take any further discussion re Ireland to a new thread not trying to stop debate but this discussion needs to concentrate on the ukraine and today.
Thanks

[Thomas]

I would have a bet at Ladbrokes that they are all saying the same thing which Vlad has already said he doesn't give a monkeys about, the EU with its partners blah,blah, blah.

I dont think anyone gives a monkeys sheepwash about the EU. 

The only three serious military powers on the european continent are the russians british and french. Only one is in the EU .

[Thomas]

The United States Is Reaping What It Sowed in Ukraine

The U.S. government continues sending weapons to Ukraine, escalating the likelihood of war with Russia.

The United States and Russia both claim their escalations in Ukraine are defensive, responding to threats by the other side. The resulting spiral of escalation only makes war more likely. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky is warning that "panic" by U.S. and Western leaders is already causing economic destabilization in the Eastern European country.  

Germany is wisely refusing to funnel more weapons into Ukraine, in keeping with its long-standing policy of not sending weapons into conflict zones. Ralf Stegner, a senior Member of Parliament for Germany's ruling Social Democrats, told the BBC that the Minsk-Normandy process agreed to by France, Germany, Russia, and Ukraine in 2015 is still the right framework for ending the civil war.

"The Minsk Agreement hasn't been applied by both sides," Stegner said, "and it just doesn't make any sense to think that forcing up the military possibilities would make it better. Rather, I think it's the hour of diplomacy."
By contrast, most U.S. politicians and corporate media have fallen in line with a one-sided narrative that paints Russia as the aggressor in Ukraine, and supports sending more weapons to Ukrainian government forces.

The most critical events that have been airbrushed out of the West's political narrative are the violation of agreements that Western leaders made at the end of the Cold War not to expand NATO into Eastern Europe, and the U.S.-backed coup in Ukraine in February 2014. Western mainstream media accounts instead date the crisis in Ukraine back to Russia's reintegration of Crimea in 2014, and the decision by ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine to secede from Ukraine as the Luhansk and Donetsk People's Republics. 
But these were not unprovoked actions; they were responses to the U.S.-backed coup, in which an armed mob led by the neo-Nazi Right Sector militia stormed the Ukrainian parliament, forcing the elected President Viktor Yanukovich and members of his party to flee for their lives.

The remaining members of parliament voted to form a new government, subverting the political transition and plans for a new election that Yanukovich had publicly agreed to the day before, after meetings with the foreign ministers of France, Germany, and Poland.

The U.S. role in managing the coup was exposed by a leaked 2014 audio recording of Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland and U.S. Ambassador Geoffrey Pyatt working on their plans, which included sidelining the European Union and shoehorning in U.S. protege Arseniy Yatsenyuk as prime minister. 

Both of Nuland's hand-picked puppets in Ukraine, Prime Minister Yatsenyuk and President Poroshenko, were soon mired in corruption scandals. Yatsenyuk was forced to resign after two years and Poroshenko was named in a tax evasion scandal revealed in the Panama Papers. Post-coup, war-torn Ukraine remains the poorest country in Europe, and one of the most corrupt.


https://progressive.org/latest/us-reaping-sowed-in-ukraine-benjamin-davies-220201/

[Thomas]

What will the west do,not a lot is my guess with dopey Joes sudden departure from Afghanistan sending a big sign saying we're not doing this anymore add to that Trump (I'm really still president) egging him on from the sidelines.

How can anyone trust american intevention anywhere cromwell after the afghan debacle?

American intervention doesnt appear to have long term goals in terms of peace or help for the peoples of the countries they invade , its about regime change for pro yank governments to be installed , and then they run off when public opinion back home gets tired, leaving a trail of destruction behind them.

Let there be no doubt what we are seeing isnt just russian aggression , its long term interference by yanks governemnts in eastern europe and chickens coming home to roost.

What will the west do? Ask washington. Western policy is predicated off the back what our american bosses say , from the top of the feudal pyramid.

Like i say , remember who is telling the uk northern ireland cant leave the EU , and it isnt putin. Its washington interfereing in uk domestic soveriegnty. If the yanks werent involved and threatening , with their pro irish yank president  , i would have thought johnson would have told the gutless EU to fack off a long time ago and took an integral part of the uk out of the disaster of the protocol as should have been done.

[Thomas]

Well if it had just been the takeover of the Russian supporting regions I don't suppose anyone would have bothered too much bar a couple of phone calls and lets meet up for drinks sometime .

This is not about the Russian supporting regions though , this is about the sovereignty of the whole of Ukraine . Russia is invading a sovereign  nation this morning .

I think a lot of it streetwalker is about NATO breaking  post cold war proimises of not exapnding into eastern europes , tweaking russian noses , and the americans sidelining the EU and getting inviolved in ukraine.

They poked the russian bear , and now we are seeing the consequences.

I thought this an interesting article.

Hypocrisy prolongs global violence
by Robin McAlpine | 23 Feb 2022
The global cycle of violence cannot be broken so long as everyone clings to their own hypocrisy

Let me start by making absolutely clear that nothing in this piece should be read as any kind of support for Russian military activity in Ukraine. My entire argument is that cycles of violence and aggression become very hard to break once they have begun.
The reason for that? Hypocrisy – and largely (though far from exclusively) Western hypocrisy. Since the Cold War the West has had pretty-well unhindered global dominance. What we did with it was to put our boot on the neck of anyone we wanted to. And then we wonder why they lash out.
I'm not even arguing against sanctions on Russia, I'm arguing that unless we are honest and consistent in our application of them then Russia will feel (and will be right to feel) that double standards are being applied.

So let's be consistent then. Let's do unto ourselves what we expect to have the right to do to others. If 'one toecap' of a country's military boots cross a border into a country which has not requested their presence or the UN has not mandated, let's apply the full set of sanctions that an invasion brings for others.
Iraq is a sovereign country and didn't ask us to invade. Out of the global money system goes the US and the UK.

'But it wasn't a proper democracy' shouts The Blob. Well, twice in ten years Ukraine elected Russian-orientated leaders in what no-one disputes were legitimate and fair elections, largely with votes from the east of the country. Both times that leader was overthrown by a public coup (backed heavily by the US) which took place only in limited areas of the west of the country.
'Respecting other nation's sovereignty' – what, like the US's stance towards Cuba? How does the US's virtually unmentioned but ongoing programme of extra-judicial murders by drone in countries which have not given consent fit into that? Barak Obama dropped more bombs during his presidency than any world leader in all of history.

'Breaking international law' – like Israel, repeatedly decried in the United Nations for doing just that? The number of occasions in which Western and Western-aligned nations have breached international law since the Cold War is so long it's farcical the words pass our lips. The US continues to refuse to sign up to the International Criminal Court – for very specific reasons.
Or what about 'the provocative build-up of threatening military force near another country's border' – like say the 'Defender Europe' exercise in 2020 which brought 20,000 US troops across the Atlantic and involved US B-52 bombers entering Ukraine air-space for the first time? Or the simulated bomb raids around Kaliningrad as a test for destroying Russian air-defence systems? Or the 18 times last year nuclear weapon carriers flew to the Russian borders?

Interfering in other nation's politics? Don't make me laugh – the US virtually invented the practice. It's record in the Middle East and in Latin America is so blood-soaked, so morally abhorrent that one wonders what its victims in both these parts of the world must think when they hear another lecture from the US.
Torture of prisoners, extraordinary rendition (kidnapping for the purposes of torture), cyber attacks, destruction of civilian infrastructure in non-UN-sanctioned bombing raids, feral soldiers raping and murdering their way across territories they occupy, expropriation of other people's land by force, provision of weapons to others to carry out war crimes, economic sabotage?
On and on and on goes the charge sheet of crimes against humanity carried out by the West. And the punishment? None.

In my world the International Criminal Court would today be mandating a United Nations military taskforce to enter Russia and arrest Vladimir Putin for what is happening in Ukraine. Assuming a successful conviction he would then be detained in a high security prison for the duration of his sentence.
While there he would be treated humanely and according to the standards of human rights the ICC is there to ensure. Which would mean he would be free to form a mixed-doubles pingpong team with George W Bush, Benjamin Netanyahu and Tony Blair who would be in adjoining cells convicted of precisely the same charges.

http://robinmcalpine.org/hypocrisy-prolongs-global-violence/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

[cromwell]

Will he stop with the Ukraine? Does he see a return of the old buffer satellite nations I bet there's nervous people in those nations.

What will the west do,not a lot is my guess with dopey Joes sudden departure from Afghanistan sending a big sign saying we're not doing this anymore add to that Trump (I'm really still president) egging him on from the sidelines.

China backing him not hard to understand that Taiwan will be next,dangerous times indeed for all of us.

[Thomas]

  To you Putin, is not to be criticised because according to you the history of Ireland ,and our own is not squeaky clean. In fact no country on earth  has been squeaky  clean politically don't you know. Not even Scotland, I don't doubt. So that's Putin, off the hook according to you.

Putin can be criticised. Stop misrepresenting me.

Im saying criticism should be done through the correct channels , not by yank propaganda which ignores many issues that have caused this conflict including their own underhand dealings in ukraine.

Im also pointing out the hypocricy of many western countries ,including yours and the yanks , currently in breach of UN resolutions. Never mind historical hypocrisy like ireland.

New labour worshippers like you dont care either for ukraine , russia , or anything else. You merely want to jump on board the anti russian bandwagon to curry favour with the yanks democrats ,  appeal to the sense of warmongering and hope the uk public worship you for it , and lay the field ready to attack the toires over russian dirty money.


Lets just re cap again.

I dont recall vladimir putin telling scotland they couldnt and shouldnt be independent in 2014. I do recall a hypcoritical american demcorat president against the backdrop of fireworks celebrating american independence from your country , telling us we should t be indy.

I also recall your country going to russia to ask putin for help in stopping scot indy.




Further i dont recall the russians telliing the english they couldnt leave the euroepan union . I do recall an american democrat president telling england /uk that you would be at the back of the queue for trade deals if you left. Not to mention further interfering ( biden) in northern ireland.

You new labour chancers make me laugh in the extreme. You are nothing more than both american democrat puppets and brussells puppets. Why should the uk public ever trust you never mind elect you into a position of power to do your masters bidding in washington and brussells?

[Streetwalker]

How exactly does the matter of a few million Russian Speaking people of Russian Heritage, living in territory that used to be part of Russia, that is now immediately adjacent to Russia and who would like their territory to once again be a part of Russia, pose an Existential threat to the rest of Europe?

Well if it had just been the takeover of the Russian supporting regions I don't suppose anyone would have bothered too much bar a couple of phone calls and lets meet up for drinks sometime . 

This is not about the Russian supporting regions though , this is about the sovereignty of the whole of Ukraine . Russia is invading a sovereign  nation this morning . 

[Sheepy]

He has taken the invitation after threatening him with putting nukes on Ukrainian soil, now what?

[Good old]

Eh?

Neither the russians or americans are the uk friends. Despite this ,  the re emerging cold war propaganda is telling us one is a baddy , the other our bestest friend?

How so?

Need i remind you it was the yanks , not the russians , who humiliated the uk at the suez crises on the world stage , and brought about the end of the perception of the uk as a global power.

Need i remind you it was the yanks , not the russians , who funded irish terrorism through NORAID and many other avenues over a thirty year period if not more.

Need i remind you it was the yanks , no the russians , who have dragged the uk into numerous morally questionable wars over the last 25 years.

Need i remaind you it was the yanks , no the russians , who twice in the last ten years alone , interfered in uk domestic referenda  , never mind controlled uk foreign policy over an even longer timescale.

Need i remind you it was the yanks , no the russians , who are currently interfereing in uk sovereignty over an integral part of the uk state in northern ireland , and demanding northern ireland is kept within the european union with mild and subtle threats.

..and you talk about dictators starting wars while blind to the actions of our so called bestest friend?

Whats sir keir saying about all this? promising to emulate the tories if only the uk public will love him and vote labour into power?

Never mind worrying about putin and ukraine , who needs friends like washington and sleepy joe biden the irish republican and prospective traitors in government like the EU sellout starmer and his treacherous new labour scum.

Stop dreaming Thomas, I'm blind to nothing,.unlike you I don't pretend to want it all ways. You  are right we have no true friends. And our political relationships are based on need and caution in tandem. And to make matters worse you can't trust your next door neighbour let alone your politicians. Regardless for me Putin, and the way  of life he creates is at the bottom of any list .