Is anyone surprised? Ukraine invaded

[Thomas]

Ethnic communities have been the excuse for dictators to start wars on the continent to everyone's great suffering before . Russia has been doing it on their immense borders throughout history, Finland, being a noticeable example of them coming unstuck. And their treacherous invasion of Poland, another. In this modern world that is no longer acceptable. NATO, membership for Ukraine , doesn't exist and may well not . A western invasion of Russia, under any circumstance, is complete ,pie in sky. How the hell would anyone hold Russia,down. .?
We all know what he fears, is the fact that if his neighbours become westernised and the west get to much access to Russian public opinion his duff strong arm dictatorship might not seem quiet so sweet for  his subjects.
Trying to influence Ukraine , without force of arms ,it's expected. Armed interference is not.
Cromwell, made the point , in short for all our own faults. Who's  way of life do you want to support.
We all know at a last resort that would be determined by war. When someone turns up on the border of a country they already are engaging by proxy in war like activities , with an army in excess of 150,000 set up for aggression not just defence , then it is not going to be ignored or excused as it appears to follow a tried recipe for chaos on a grand scale.

Eh?

Neither the russians or americans are the uk friends. Despite this ,  the re emerging cold war propaganda is telling us one is a baddy , the other our bestest friend?

How so?

Need i remind you it was the yanks , not the russians , who humiliated the uk at the suez crises on the world stage , and brought about the end of the perception of the uk as a global power.

Need i remind you it was the yanks , not the russians , who funded irish terrorism through NORAID and many other avenues over a thirty year period if not more.

Need i remind you it was the yanks , no the russians , who have dragged the uk into numerous morally questionable wars over the last 25 years.

Need i remaind you it was the yanks , no the russians , who twice in the last ten years alone , interfered in uk domestic referenda  , never mind controlled uk foreign policy over an even longer timescale.

Need i remind you it was the yanks , no the russians , who are currently interfereing in uk sovereignty over an integral part of the uk state in northern ireland , and demanding northern ireland is kept within the european union with mild and subtle threats.

..and you talk about dictators starting wars while blind to the actions of our so called bestest friend?

Whats sir keir saying about all this? promising to emulate the tories if only the uk public will love him and vote labour into power?

Never mind worrying about putin and ukraine , who needs friends like washington and sleepy joe biden the irish republican and prospective traitors in government like the EU sellout starmer and his treacherous new labour scum.

[B0ycey]

Jesus Christ. Putin must have the golden shower video of Trump, no doubt. Trump praises Putin for declaring independence for the Donbass region of Ukraine in a Conservative talkshow. I doubt the Republicans in the capitol would agree with him here. 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/feb/23/trump-putin-genius-russia-ukraine-crisis

[Good old]

Ok so you clearly believe that the West and West alone has the arbitrary right to determine the fate of nations and peoples and all others must accede.
I do indeed wonder if a Maidan type situation repeated itself in Scotland, with the view of it not just leaving the UK but joining such bodies as the SCO and CSTO and hosting forces from those countries on it soil, while senior Chinese and Russian politicians were flying in and cheering on the crowds, whether you would be quite so sanguine about it
I will however re-ask the question that I asked a few days ago.
How exactly does the matter of a few million Russian Speaking people of Russian Heritage, living in territory that used to be part of Russia, that is now immediately adjacent to Russia and who would like their territory to once again be a part of Russia, pose an Existential threat to the rest of Europe?

In all of these disputes there is going to be large amount of , what abouts, it is a fact that double standards are always at play. And no I don't believe the west has an arbitrary right to determine the rights of countries.
But I do believe the actual circumstance behind every intervention is invariably  different, and at all times should be judged on every factor at play at that time. I also believe that Putin, is not alone in being concerned as to the make up of his near neighbours politically. 
I,m sure we would have concerns, in the circumstance you describe,  we did with Ireland, in 1939, not totally justified .but to be expected . The US has demonstrated its discomfort over Cuba, for many years. It maintains a base there , but they don't  keep turning up in the Caribbean, with a massed military group numbering hundreds of thousands specifically set up for the invasion of another nation. Outside of the bay of pigs debacle!the fact is the US has found other ways of making life hard for Cuba, and rightfully, Cubas politics remain its own.
it is expected that Putin, should not encourage Ukrainian friendship with the west , but any significant  military interference either in Cuba, or Ukraine ,can not be accepted. And certainly should not.
Ukraine in particular , as it is part of Europe, is of concern for all Europeans. Ethnic communities have been the excuse for dictators to start wars on the continent to everyone's great suffering before . Russia has been doing it on their immense borders throughout history, Finland, being a noticeable example of them coming unstuck. And their treacherous invasion of Poland, another. In this modern world that is no longer acceptable. NATO, membership for Ukraine , doesn't exist and may well not . A western invasion of Russia, under any circumstance, is complete ,pie in sky. How the hell would anyone hold Russia,down. .?
We all know what he fears, is the fact that if his neighbours become westernised and the west get to much access to Russian public opinion his duff strong arm dictatorship might not seem quiet so sweet for  his subjects.
Trying to influence Ukraine , without force of arms ,it's expected. Armed interference is not.
Cromwell, made the point , in short for all our own faults. Who's  way of life do you want to support.
We all know at a last resort that would be determined by war. When someone turns up on the border of a country they already are engaging by proxy in war like activities , with an army in excess of 150,000 set up for aggression not just defence , then it is not going to be ignored or excused as it appears to follow a tried recipe for chaos on a grand scale.

[Sampanviking]

Would you say ethnic, Jamaicans , or ethnic Indians, in The U.K. would have rights to self determination, when living within the U.K.?
If ethnicity is reason to change the sovereign rights of nations then we have mayhem . This has been put to the test in Europe , before and the tears are still shed to this day.
You better ask Putin, whether he supports armed coups, he has just signed up to one.
No, Serbia, inflicted such atrocities on the Kosovo, it does not deserve any say in the future of that country.
None of this is all about morality or precedents set. It's about Putin,shaking the same old tree that has led to conflict all across the continent. If that is not noted ,in particular by him then it has to be questioned as to what he considers the future of Europe to be.

Ok so you clearly believe that the West and West alone has the arbitrary right to determine the fate of nations and peoples and all others must accede.
I do indeed wonder if a Maidan type situation repeated itself in Scotland, with the view of it not just leaving the UK but joining such bodies as the SCO and CSTO and hosting forces from those countries on it soil, while senior Chinese and Russian politicians were flying in and cheering on the crowds, whether you would be quite so sanguine about it
I will however re-ask the question that I asked a few days ago.
How exactly does the matter of a few million Russian Speaking people of Russian Heritage, living in territory that used to be part of Russia, that is now immediately adjacent to Russia and who would like their territory to once again be a part of Russia, pose an Existential threat to the rest of Europe?

[Good old]

Another thing that has just came to me , if partition was done as you infer ( which is guff of course) to avoid all out war between unionist and naitonalist , why did churchil , the british prime minisnter , offer eamon de valera the whole of the 6 counties including those selfsame unionist areas a  mere twenty years after partition in return for the british navy using irish sea ports in world war 2?

The noble deed of partition stopping all out war was to be thrown to the wind for british war time interests ?

I tell you good old , when you dig a hole mate , you dont stop do you?

Warmongering new labour and thier feeble attempts to ride the back of imagined public opinion over war . Its like you havent learned any lessons from iraq etc.

Keir starmer and new labour , the war government in the making.

Would sir keir be able to make any unilateral war decisions if he were prime minisnter without asking brussells permission first on what to do?

More rumour, not pure fact. Churchill, was rumoured to have made that offer. De Valera,was rumoured to have turned it down. Why because it wasn't Churchills to give. There's a clue there Thomas, as to the truth of it, but never mind . Also rumoured was that De  Valara, didn't want to have to deal with what he still saw as the threat of a Unionist armed reaction. Now there is a another clue, as to the capabilities the Unionists had at that time. You miss them  all because you prefer to accuse others of talking Guff, talking Bollox, tripe. And digging holes. 
And You can't leave Starmer out of it ,or Brussels. Everyone really. Oh hang on , you don't mention Putin..

[Good old]

So you don't believe that the Ethnic Russians in these areas have any right to their Self Determination?
Do you also support the toppling of elected governments in armed coups?
Do you then support the return of Kosovo to Serbia?

Would you say ethnic, Jamaicans , or ethnic Indians, in The U.K. would have rights to self determination, when living within the U.K.?
If ethnicity is reason to change the sovereign rights of nations then we have mayhem . This has been put to the test in Europe , before and the tears are still shed to this day. 
You better ask Putin, whether he supports armed coups, he has just signed up to one.
No, Serbia, inflicted such atrocities on the Kosovo, it does not deserve any say in the future of that country.
None of this is all about morality or precedents set. It's about Putin,shaking the same old tree that has led to conflict all across the continent. If that is not noted ,in particular by him then it has to be questioned as to what he considers the future of Europe to be.

[Sampanviking]

Well done Thomas, taken the thread totally away from Putins threats to the Ukraine. And turned it into a dispute over the age old dispute in Ireland. Now this thread is actually called. " is anyone surprised". And I have to ask . Is anyone surprised that this is what you would do?
You have just posted , a lengthy response ,made of three posts , hardly any of which was about Putin. Instead you use your time as ever guessing and elaborating on what was a very simple assertion by me, which was that , partition in Ireland , in 1922 had stopped what would at that time have been a bloody armed civil conflict, far more serious in loss of life ,than anything that has happened since that time.I claimed nothing else.
You disagree, OK, well you would ,wouldn't you ? There isn't much you don't disagree with.
Basically your posts are nothing more than a protracted, effort to divert from calling Putin, and his actions in Ukraine ,for they are, which is a crude land grab , conducted under the guise of ethnic, protection and his own security.
I am not surprised by your efforts, I wonder if anyone else is.

So you don't believe that the Ethnic Russians in these areas have any right to their Self Determination?
Do you also support the toppling of elected governments in armed coups?
Do you then support the return of Kosovo to Serbia?

[Sheepy]

Well done Thomas, taken the thread totally away from Putins threats to the Ukraine. And turned it into a dispute over the age old dispute in Ireland. Now this thread is actually called. " is anyone surprised". And I have to ask . Is anyone surprised that this is what you would do?
You have just posted , a lengthy response ,made of three posts , hardly any of which was about Putin. Instead you use your time as ever guessing and elaborating on what was a very simple assertion by me, which was that , partition in Ireland , in 1922 had stopped what would at that time have been a bloody armed civil conflict, far more serious in loss of life ,than anything that has happened since that time.I claimed nothing else.
You disagree, OK, well you would ,wouldn't you ? There isn't much you don't disagree with.
Basically your posts are nothing more than a protracted, effort to divert from calling Putin, and his actions in Ukraine ,for they are, which is a crude land grab , conducted under the guise of ethnic, protection and his own security.
I am not surprised by your efforts, I wonder if anyone else is.

So says you, while Thomas was making historical comparisons which have historical credence, who knows maybe he will stabilise gas and oil prices while he is there.  

[Good old]

Well done Thomas, taken the thread totally away from Putins threats to the Ukraine. And turned it into a dispute over the age old dispute in Ireland. Now this thread is actually called. " is anyone surprised". And I have to ask . Is anyone surprised that this is what you would do?
You have just posted , a lengthy response ,made of three posts , hardly any of which was about Putin. Instead you use your time as ever guessing and elaborating on what was a very simple assertion by me, which was that , partition in Ireland , in 1922 had stopped what would at that time have been a bloody armed civil conflict, far more serious in loss of life ,than anything that has happened since that time.I claimed nothing else.
You disagree, OK, well you would ,wouldn't you ? There isn't much you don't disagree with.
Basically your posts are nothing more than a protracted, effort to divert from calling Putin, and his actions in Ukraine ,for they are, which is a crude land grab , conducted under the guise of ethnic, protection and his own security.
I am not surprised by your efforts, I wonder if anyone else is.

[Thomas]

What I claim is that if the Irish, North and South, had been left to sort their own  situation there would have been a full scale civil war ,in proportion well beyond what has occurred since partition. a proper war with thousands of casualties in a very short period.

Another thing that has just came to me , if partition was done as you infer ( which is guff of course) to avoid all out war between unionist and naitonalist , why did churchil , the british prime minisnter , offer eamon de valera the whole of the 6 counties including those selfsame unionist areas a  mere twenty years after partition in return for the british navy using irish sea ports in world war 2?

The noble deed of partition stopping all out war was to be thrown to the wind for british war time interests ?

I tell you good old , when you dig a hole mate , you dont stop do you?

Warmongering new labour and thier feeble attempts to ride the back of imagined public opinion over war . Its like you havent learned any lessons from iraq etc.

Keir starmer and new labour , the war government in the making.

Would sir keir be able to make any unilateral war decisions if he were prime minisnter without asking brussells permission first on what to do?

[Thomas]

This isn't about just morality, it's politics how could it be all about morality?

Morality?

How many times in my lifetime along have we watched the americans and their poodles going into and violating the integrity of sovereign states , using their warped  "political " mindset to impose regime change and leaving a trail of destruction behind them in the process , in which many areas , syria libya afghanistan iraq etc we are still living with the consequences of today?

[Thomas]

What is this Thomas, more of the great dramatist with imagination doing overtime? What the hell are you on about?
Where other than in your imagination do I claim partitition was a great and noble deed?

Well let me remind you what you were saying.

Northern paramilitaries  where in large numbers and armed to the teeth, and if the British, had not been successful in implementing that partition there would have been a total state of all out war

Now from that sentence from your earlier post , the inferrance is partition ( something that was a positive step in your inferrance) had to be done to stop all out war ( between nationalist and unionist).

Its bullshit for two reasons as i have said.

1. For partition to stop war , the dividing line should have been between the four unionist dominated counties , and the rest of irelands nationalist dominated counties. While i still wouldnt have agreed with it , you would in that instance have some measure of a point. You dont though , as partition took two nationalist counties .

so how that fack can partition be any positive step in stopping all out war when you included two nationalst dominated areas inthe partitioned state and subsequent all out war between nationalsit and unionist in the new statelet?

2. Ignoring the fact there was both war with england and then civil war in ireland , we have already discussed how your "partition stopped all out conflict " is pish , when we see the history of the 6 country statelet.

So by both these measures and more its the usual good old guff .

So if putin partitions ukraine to stop all out war between ethinc russians and ukrainians  , you are saying its a positive thing then in line with what the uk did in northern ireland i take it?

The religious numbers deceive as the unionists paramilitaries were formed by every able man and were extremely well armed. And they were going  to fight

Eh? Am i reading this drivel correct?

In order to spare your ever growing blushes , are you now trying to infer nationalist dominated areas fermanagh and tyrone could be included in a sectarian headcount for unionism who were going to fight to remain in the uk?

You are spouting verbal diarrhea now mate.

So what was this coercion.?

Do you understand the meaning of the word?

You do talk some bollocks sometimes, why should use of the word coercion,

The word coercion was used by your british prime mininster lloyd george , not me , so dont shoot the messenger.

He called the plan to keep fermanagh and tyrone in the new orange statelet "coercion" , and you can find the quote in Michale Farrell , the orange state , pluto press london 1976 , which quotes what he said to the boundary commision at the time.

It's always been the case that the North contained a large Catholic population

The whole of northern ireland historicall was for centuries completely catholic , until the plantations of the 16th century started by mary tudor and then continued by james stewart.

Sectariansim as we know it didint start till the mid nineteenth century. The presbyterians were before that portestant dissenters to british rule.

And it's common knowledge partition didn't take the long term problem away

WTF are you gibbering about then?

but when it was implemented it saved an awful lot of life's being lost

What utter nonsense. There have been thousands of deaths since partition , the long war itself had cost 3523 deaths , over half of them ordinary civilians , never mind over 700 british soldiers.

All to anti democratically keep 6 counties part of the uk , of which only four had unionist majorities. 

And that's what was going to happen ,whether it suits your narrative or not

Have you tried to ignore events from 1921 to 2022? both sides fighting it out did happen you absolute crackpot.

As for the UN Putin, would simply veto. As far as he is concerned he is the police. This isn't about just morality, it's politics how could it be all about morality?

So the UN is now useless is what you are inferring?

If we are going to have an international order , courts and rules based world , then we all have to abide by it , including the worlds self apointed policemen , without fear or favour , or we dont , in which case the yanks and thier puppets are merely demanding others abide by rules they break routinely.

[Good old]

I havent heard so much shite on this forum for a while now. Are you really trying to insinuate partition in ireland was a great and noble deed with the intention of keeping warring factions from each others throat?

Really?

Lets ignore that it wasnt a black and white case , with unionists all over the island , but concentrated by the early 20th century in the north east. Lets ignore for centuries Dublin was the centre of english , then british rule .

If partition was designed to keep catholic from protestant , unionist/loyalist , from nationalist republican , then why was it placed where it is?

The original plan had been to seperate ulsters historic 9 counties from the rest of ireland.

...but only 4 , antrim , armagh , down and derry had clear unionist majorities.

They then settled on 6 , including fermanagh and tyrone , which had clear nationalist majorities.

To quote the british prime minister david lloyd george who said..

"There is no doubt that the majority of people in those two counties ( fermanagh and tyrone) prefer to be with their southern neighbours. It is only through means of coercion you can keep them there ( as part of the 6) , and i do not believe in coercing these people."

That was a quote from your own british prime minister at the time on the boundary commission , where even he was suggesting partition wasnt some noble deed done to keep warring factions apart , but the coercion of two nationalsit units into a unionist state , that was set up as an apartheid state under british rule , with the predictable civil war you say it was designed to stop , happening in the aftermath .

All in all yet more good old fantasy guff. I have told you a number of times now , stop misrepresenting me , the international community , through the un , not self apointed warmongering policeman should deal with putin.

What is this Thomas, more of the great dramatist with imagination doing overtime? What the hell are you on about? 
Where other than in your imagination do I claim partitition was a great and noble deed?
What I claim is that if the Irish, North and South, had been left to sort their own  situation there would have been a full scale civil war ,in proportion well beyond what has occurred since partition. a proper war with thousands of casualties in a very short period.
The religious numbers deceive as the unionists paramilitaries were formed by every able man and were extremely well armed. And they were going  to fight . 
So what was this coercion.? Did they give them sweets.? It really doesn't matter actually because whatever it was it was considered by all sides to be better than what was going to happen if they didn't settle for a relatively peaceful outcome. You do talk some bollocks sometimes, why should use of the word coercion, automatically be considered sinister? It's always been the case that the North contained a large Catholic population, it's always been accepted most would have preferred a United Ireland. And it's common knowledge partition didn't take the long term problem away but when it was implemented it saved an awful lot of life's being lost from the alternative which was to let both sides fight it out with all hands on deck. And that's what was going to happen ,whether it suits your narrative or not.
I don't mis represent you. But it's really rich coming from the man that does that with just about everyone he converses with. As for the UN Putin, would simply veto. As far as he is concerned he is the police. This isn't about just morality, it's politics how could it be all about morality?
 

[Thomas]

Well to take a leaf from your book that's none of your or my business.

Scotland voting to remain in the eu ...ignored?

Brexit was a uk vote so uk must leave....ignored

need i go on? Thats certainly all our business.

Just fed up getting dragged into americas proxy wars with the russians. If new labourites like good old are on board with putin bad , you just know not to touch it with a barge pole.

[cromwell]

Maybe you should listen to the cubans when they ask for help in getting guantanamo bay back from the yanks eh? Or the UN over the chagos islands?

Well to take a leaf from your book that's none of your or my business.