Is anyone surprised? Ukraine invaded

[Good old]

i dont think putin is going to take any lessons from westmisnter over annexation when you annexed northern ireland similarly do you good old?

Further , when is the uk and the usa going to hand back the chagos islands , and comply with the current UN resolution on the place?

can't see how the russians are any worse than the yanks british and french myself.

They all have skeletons. Wouldn't it be something if they would all stop pushing the boat out. ?  Many would, and did at the time say that the NI settlement in 1922 prevented a civil war. In fact it was felt that the start of WW1 had held back a civil war there. So not all bad. Maybe that could be the case in Ukraine, but as in Ireland that needs to be agreed on. Not a force of arms.

[Sheepy]

He has already signed on behalf of the Russian federation, now what? 

[B0ycey]

Having ethnic communities on another's sovereign territory is not ,and can not be a valid reason to annex territory.
Hitler had this as an excuse to invade Poland, virtually every European country has border country that has as much in common with its neighbour as the country it is actually a part of. Putin has form on this, as is well known, he could make similar claims on virtually every border he possesses. And Russia has done that for centuries. I am very much for Ukraines sovereignty ,because if theirs can be trampled on so can that of any number of his other  neighbours . We are all guessing, but yes Donbas, may well be the key to this. But only because he is telling the Ukrainians and anyone else ,Donbas, is coming with us not just the people but the part of Ukraine it actually is.
I can understand he wants neighbours he can control without question. All powerful countries tend to do that. But it's not military invasion he has to fear it's the influence of western values creeping across to his manor.
I like everyone don't know Putins mind. But  if he should invade he won't have us guessing ever again, and I'm not sure that would suit him. So maybe he won't put all of his cards down on this.

The point of the referendum of Crimea was to comply with the UN that Crimea has the right of self determination. Whether that was legal is down to interpretation Good Old. But what I will say is the West didn't act on Crimea and now it is too late, Crimea is now gone. Donbass will go unless the West act quickly given Putin is now recognising it as a break away state. As I said before on this forum, the only person who can actually solve this problem is Zelensky himself. He can get assurances and Donbass back if he stops his NATO ambitions. He can't get membership whilst claiming Crimea anyway and he won't get Western military support under a civil war in Donbass. I am aware he has a meeting with Macron and Scholz. They will spell things out to him I am sure and then I guess it will depend on how much he wants to lose before he can see the West isn't coming to his aide.

[Sheepy]

So what. It's set up as an invasion force, the one thing that is certain so far is he wants the world to know what it's potential is. Massive manoeuvres , with an almost totally offensive nature conducted by a country supposedly worried about its security. If commenting on it is waffle. You have done more than your share.
So let's see if he wonders off as if his boys have been on a two month jolly. I,ll be happy , I don't think the Ukrainians will be. Relieved but not happy.

LOL wander off, I don't think so he is on his own borders. 

[Thomas]

Ukraine: Where to Find the Truth in Enormous Detail


In the massive propaganda blitz over Ukraine, there is one place where you can find, in enormous detail, the truth about what is happening in the civil war conflict zone on a daily basis. That is in  the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) Monitoring Mission.


Three countries have now withdrawn their staff from the OSCE Monitoring Mission in preparation for a coming war – the UK, the USA and Canada. In my view, that speaks volumes about who is actually planning on starting a war here. Extraordinarily, having withdrawn their staff, the western powers are now briefing the media that the OSCE (which has for decades been a key tool of western security architecture) is a biased organisation.

Yet again the parallel to the Iraq War is striking to those of us who recall the rubbishing by the US/UK of the reports of the UN weapons inspection team, in favour of propaganda and outright lies in order to start a war.

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2022/02/ukraine-where-to-find-the-truth-in-enormous-detail/

[Good old]

So why waffle about we now know he could one together, according to the US and everyone else with their fingers in the pie it is an invasion force, which hasn't actually apart from hysteria invaded anywhere.

So what. It's set up as an invasion force, the one thing that is certain so far is he wants the world to know what it's potential is. Massive manoeuvres , with an almost totally offensive nature conducted by a country supposedly worried about its security. If commenting on it is waffle. You have done more than your share.
So let's see if he wanders  off as if his boys have been on a two month jolly. I,ll be happy , I don't think the Ukrainians will be. Relieved but not happy.

[Thomas]

Having ethnic communities on another's sovereign territory is not ,and can not be a valid reason to annex territory.

sheer british hypcrisy. Wasnt that the reason behind the annexation of 6 counties of ireland?

Ireland at least was an ancient country going back centuries , ukraine has never been a nation in history from what i gather until it was invented by the USSR as an administrative province.

Complex subject that can do without western warmongering and westmisnter hypocrisy.

[Thomas]

Crimea, was annexed, it was Ukrainian territory, regardless of the fact that 65% of people living there speaking and being of Russian decent . Ukraine, is either sovereign within its borders or it is not.  That's already been put into question by Putin, the only question now is will he enlarge on that.
When he makes his mind up which way he is going . We will all have a much better picture of what to do in any future interaction with him and his country.

i dont think putin is going to take any lessons from westmisnter over annexation when you annexed northern ireland similarly do you good old?

Further , when is the uk and the usa going to hand back the chagos islands , and comply with the current UN resolution on the place?

Cant see how the russians are any worse than the yanks british and french myself.

[Good old]

Good Old, wait until there is an invasion and then you might have a leg to stand on. Putin hasn't ruled out an invasion in the future if Ukraine break the ceasefire. That is why they are at the border training. To make sure Ukraine don't invade Donbass and to showcase that Russia aren't there to just ignore the plight of the rebels. Besides, I am all for Ukraine sovereignty. But I understand Russias security concerns also. Ukraine isn't able to join NATO if there is a border dispute in any case so it does make sense for Zelensky to listen to what Macron has to offer. Give up NATO ambitions in the future (if at all possible) and in return have commitments from Russia in terms of where there troops are based and perhaps a recognition that Donbass is Ukrainian Sovereignty.

Having ethnic communities on another's sovereign territory is not ,and can not be a valid reason to annex territory.
Hitler had this as an excuse to invade Poland, virtually every European country has border country that has as much in common with its neighbour as the country it is actually a part of. Putin has form on this, as is well known, he could make similar claims on virtually every border he possesses. And Russia has done that for centuries. I am very much for Ukraines sovereignty ,because if theirs can be trampled on so can that of any number of his other  neighbours . We are all guessing, but yes Donbas, may well be the key to this. But only because he is telling the Ukrainians and anyone else ,Donbas, is coming with us not just the people but the part of Ukraine it actually is.
I can understand he wants neighbours he can control without question. All powerful countries tend to do that. But it's not military invasion he has to fear it's the influence of western values creeping across to his manor. 
I like everyone don't know Putins mind. But  if he should invade he won't have us guessing ever again, and I'm not sure that would suit him. So maybe he won't put all of his cards down on this. 

[Sheepy]

I suppose if you can't be bothered to address the actual points being made, you have little left other than to retreat behind . A one word description, such as Waffle. And yes we have always known he has the ability to get together an invasion force. He really didn't need to go to great expense to prove it.

So why waffle about we now know he could put one together, according to the US and everyone else with their fingers in the pie it is an invasion force, which hasn't actually apart from hysteria invaded anywhere.

[Good old]

Waffle, but,but if he doesn't invade, we still know he can put together an invasion force. Which we didn't know already!

I suppose if you can't be bothered to address the actual points being made, you have little left other than to retreat behind . A one word description, such as Waffle. And yes we have always known he has the ability to get together an invasion force. He really didn't need to go to great expense to prove it.

[Sampanviking]

Well that's Putins story. He has proved one thing to NATO, and that is he can put together a pretty substantial piece of military muscle, at any given time. As it's extremely unlikely that NATO, is planning an invasion of Russian territory any time soon. The question has to be so what is his point in massing a vast army on his border?
Crimea, was annexed, it was Ukrainian territory, regardless of the fact that 65% of people living there speaking and being of Russian decent . Ukraine, is either sovereign within its borders or it is not.  That's already been put into question by Putin, the only question now is will he enlarge on that.
When he makes his mind up which way he is going . We will all have a much better picture of what to do in any future interaction with him and his country.

The Russians, in all the months of this US manufactured crisis, have scarcely mentioned the Ukraine at all. What they have been discussing, what they have produced draft treaties about, is a new security architecture for Eastern Europe.
Are there hundreds of thousands of Russian troops near the Ukrainian border? These are only claims made by the US with very little if any corroborative supplied to back them up. Yes of course there are some tens of thousands of Russian troops near the border, there always has been. They were there long before any trouble started and the same units are still there. Is there any hard evidence to show all these claimed others? Well no, just some very inconclusive and cropped photos taken of military bases which tell us absolutely nothing.

What is true though, is that if Russia has amassed huge troop numbers in these locations, it is because if you want the West to negotiate with you, you need to make them from a position of strength, because the West and Washington in particular only really recognises hard power and asking nicely just gets ignored.
Maybe the sad fact is that unless they were there, there would be no diplomatic activity and negotiations taking place.

[Sheepy]

Putin to announce decision on recognition of Donbass within hours — RT Russia & Former Soviet Union

Why did he say that?
Ukraine: EU backs Kyiv with an advisory military mission (msn.com)

[B0ycey]

Well that's Putins story. He has proved one thing to NATO, and that is he can put together a pretty substantial piece of military muscle, at any given time. As it's extremely unlikely that NATO, is planning an invasion of Russian territory any time soon. The question has to be so what is his point in massing a vast army on his border?
Crimea, was annexed, it was Ukrainian territory, regardless of the fact that 65% of people living there speaking and being of Russian decent . Ukraine, is either sovereign within its borders or it is not.  That's already been put into question by Putin, the only question now is will he enlarge on that.
When he makes his mind up which way he is going . We will all have a much better picture of what to do in any future interaction with him and his country.

Good Old, wait until there is an invasion and then you might have a leg to stand on. Putin hasn't ruled out an invasion in the future if Ukraine break the ceasefire. That is why they are at the border training. To make sure Ukraine don't invade Donbass and to showcase that Russia aren't there to just ignore the plight of the rebels. Besides, I am all for Ukraine sovereignty. But I understand Russias security concerns also. Ukraine isn't able to join NATO if there is a border dispute in any case so it does make sense for Zelensky to listen to what Macron has to offer. Give up NATO ambitions in the future (if at all possible) and in return have commitments from Russia in terms of where there troops are based and perhaps a recognition that Donbass is Ukrainian Sovereignty. 

[Sheepy]

Well that's Putins story. He has proved one thing to NATO, and that is he can put together a pretty substantial piece of military muscle, at any given time. As it's extremely unlikely that NATO, is planning an invasion of Russian territory any time soon. The question has to be so what is his point in massing a vast army on his border?
Crimea, was annexed, it was Ukrainian territory, regardless of the fact that 65% of people living there speaking and being of Russian decent . Ukraine, is either sovereign within its borders or it is not.  That's already been put into question by Putin, the only question now is will he enlarge on that.
When he makes his mind up which way he is going . We will all have a much better picture of what to do in any future interaction with him and his country.

Waffle, but,but if he doesn't invade, we still know he can put together an invasion force. Which we didn't know already!