Is anyone surprised? Ukraine invaded

[B0ycey]

I have made it very clear , we all give allegiance to  imperfect nations with imperfect pasts. Yes we are all hypocrites .
Yes the Chagos, situation is morally highly questionable. As with so many remote islands it's known history is questionable for purity of intension anyway. It's governance having past to us from the French in 1814 .
None of this excuses Putin, from intruding on the sovereign territory of a European state. So rattle on all you like.
But the multitude of what's wrong in this world does not excuse the creation of more wrong.

To be fair Good Old, Thomas isn't supporting Putin but pointing out that the West need to get their house in order before they have the moral right to lecture anyone else over sovereignty. I think we need to get some distinction here because it is important.

[Borchester]

I forgot to answer the bit about Gerry,you wouldn't need a brigade just let Gerry bombard Vlad on the virtues of the eu and Vlad just might shoot himself.

[Good old]

When is the UK and the USA , the worlds policemen and beacons of all that is right, going to comply with the united nations resolution on handing the chagos islands back to the chagossians?

Just asking good old while you have the broom out tidying up the worlds problems and putting things right.


Delegates Call upon United Kingdom to Comply with Ruling by International Court of Justice that Chagos Archipelago's Decolonization Was Never Lawfully Completed

https://www.un.org/press/en/2019/gaspd696.doc.htm

The United Nations general assembly has overwhelmingly backed a motion condemning Britain's occupation of the remote Chagos Islands in the Indian Ocean.

The 116-6 vote left the UK diplomatically isolated and was also a measure of severely diminished US clout on the world stage. Washington had campaigned vigorously at the UN and directly in talks with national capitals around the world in defence of the UK's continued control of the archipelago, where there is a US military base at Diego Garcia.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/22/uk-suffers-crushing-defeat-un-vote-chagos-islands

I have made it very clear , we all give allegiance to  imperfect nations with imperfect pasts. Yes we are all hypocrites .
Yes the Chagos, situation is morally highly questionable. As with so many remote islands it's known history is questionable for purity of intension anyway. It's governance having past to us from the French in 1814 .
None of this excuses Putin, from intruding on the sovereign territory of a European state. So rattle on all you like.
But the multitude of what's wrong in this world does not excuse the creation of more wrong.

[cromwell]

No thats not the question .

Well it might not be for you.

The question is do the worlds self appointed policemen have the right to go around imposing thier version of demcoracy as they see it on everyone  else?

Is it? Where did I say it's right to go around imposing anything?
what version of democracy is Vlad selling?

The answer clearly is no , as we have just saw in afghanistan. Remember all the lies from new labour and blair , and bush in washington of why we were going in there to impose western demcoracy on savages and control the opium trade and stop terrorism?

Why are you telling me this when I have banged out the same message about Bliar and Bush for years?

Then sleepy joe decided washington was bored of the project , and what happened? Pulled the plug , and ran off leaving a trail of destruction in his wake.

Again why are you telling me this when I've said pretty much the same in other threads

There is nothing disloyal to your country than standing up for it and telling its idiotic leaders no when they are making a mistake.

Why who said it was disloyal?

The clowns that believe all the propaganda and follow smirking tossers like blair etc etc into unwinnable illegal wars are the ones who are not looking out for their own people.

Again why are you telling me this,where have I ever said anything good about Bliar.

[Thomas]

It's not likely to stop at this, and that is the problem with not having a reaction lined up that will make him think a little deeper before his next adventure.
It's fairly obvious we have not been reading Putin, and his long term objectives for a while now. But at least now he has marked our cards, as to his potential ambition. What we see here is most likely the form of what his foreign policy will look like going forward. He will continue to move in on any situation where he knows we can not confront him without risk of all out war. From the Middle East to the Artic. And just a week ago he made a very pointed reference to what all out war would be when he reminded anyone listening that he might not have as much gear as NATO, but has as many Nucs as the rest of us.

When is the UK and the USA , the worlds policemen and beacons of all that is right, going to comply with the united nations resolution on handing the chagos islands back to the chagossians?

Just asking good old while you have the broom out tidying up the worlds problems and putting things right.


Delegates Call upon United Kingdom to Comply with Ruling by International Court of Justice that Chagos Archipelago's Decolonization Was Never Lawfully Completed

https://www.un.org/press/en/2019/gaspd696.doc.htm

The United Nations general assembly has overwhelmingly backed a motion condemning Britain's occupation of the remote Chagos Islands in the Indian Ocean.

The 116-6 vote left the UK diplomatically isolated and was also a measure of severely diminished US clout on the world stage. Washington had campaigned vigorously at the UN and directly in talks with national capitals around the world in defence of the UK's continued control of the archipelago, where there is a US military base at Diego Garcia.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/22/uk-suffers-crushing-defeat-un-vote-chagos-islands

[Good old]

Well lets hope that's where it stops,Vlad attracts a lot of support on here while the west gets another good slapping.

The question you have to ask is which would you rather live under,our system for all its faults or Vlads?

It's not likely to stop at this, and that is the problem with not having a reaction lined up that will make him think a little deeper before his next adventure.
It's fairly obvious we have not been reading Putin, and his long term objectives for a while now. But at least now he has marked our cards, as to his potential ambition. What we see here is most likely the form of what his foreign policy will look like going forward. He will continue to move in on any situation where he knows we can not confront him without risk of all out war. From the Middle East to the Artic. And just a week ago he made a very pointed reference to what all out war would be when he reminded anyone listening that he might not have as much gear as NATO, but has as many Nucs as the rest of us.

[Sampanviking]

For those that say we should worry about Putin, I can only say that wanting to create a neutral buffer between themselves and NATO is hardly an existential threat to us or our way of life.
It is those on "our side" that are trying to say it is that are the ones we should be very concerned and worried about.

[B0ycey]

I think he will for this week.

Hes seen how the EU works its ratchet of grabbing sovereignty little by little, and needs to remind them who runs the master class on such.

I don't see Russia doing this to spite the EU John but to get the attention of the West or more specifically the US. The only red line for Putin is Ukraine NATO membership and the idea we are negotiating in good faith over that issue is a farce. But even so not only are going to have to discuss Ukraines NATO membership now but what is Ukrainian sovereignty in order to get Russia to role back but if we still maintain the argument that we will concede nothing and Russia will have to do what we say like before will just mean Putin will have to find another reason to "liberate" more Ukrainians and land grab some more land to get us to listen I would say.

[Thomas]

An America led by Trump is unlikely to stick it's neck out in defence of the Baltic states and Putin probably knows it.

Thats one of the things i and may others liked about trump for all his apparent faults , he was an inward looking america first president. The democrats , especially in recent years , are warmongers and stirrers of shit.

I didnt like the yanks sticking thier beaks into my countries affairs during the scot indy ref , and neither did many in yours when obama did the same over brexit , and then sleepy joe the northern irish protocol.

Washington isnt your friend or mine.

[Thomas]

The question you have to ask is which would you rather live under,our system for all its faults or Vlads?

No thats not the question . The question is do the worlds self appointed policemen have the right to go around imposing thier version of demcoracy as they see it on everyone  else?

The answer clearly is no , as we have just saw in afghanistan. Remember all the lies from new labour and blair , and bush in washington of why we were going in there to impose western demcoracy on savages and control the opium trade and stop terrorism?

My how we laughed , or would have it it wasnt for all the body bags of dead british soldiers  , many of them from my nation , coming back dying for yet more bullshit.

Then sleepy joe decided washington was bored of the project , and what happened? Pulled the plug , and ran off leaving a trail of destruction in his wake. There is nothing disloyal to your country than standing up for it and telling its idiotic leaders no when they are making a mistake.

The clowns that believe all the propaganda and follow smirking tossers like blair etc etc into unwinnable illegal wars are the ones who are not looking out for their own people.

[Thomas]

As far as I can see Ollie, Donetsk and Luhansk are border areas that have been fighting for independence for nearly a decade. Together they have a population of not much more than a million, many of whom are, as you have noted, Russian. So with a bit of luck both sides will accept the situation as a fait accompli and matters will blow over. Failing that, possibly we could set up an international brigade and send Gerry off to defend the gallant little Ukraine? He would probably get lost, poor little sod, but at least  he would have an excuse for not doing his homework.

[srb7677]

I think he will for this week.

Hes seen how the EU works its ratchet of grabbing sovereignty little by little, and needs to remind them who runs the master class on such.

To equate what Putin is doing with the actions of the EU is risible. 

The EU did not mass armies on another nations borders to intimidate them into joining. It did not encourage ethic minorities to rise in revolt, backed by EU military backing. The expansion of the EU was entirely due at every stage to nations themselves - or at least their democratically elected governments - freely choosing to join. And we have proven that however messy and even damaging it might be economically to leave, we are free to make that choice. And any loss of sovereignty as members is more a case of pooled sovereignty to a limited extent, acceded to freely by individual governments. Our various opt outs and refusal to adopt the Euro clearly shows that we are not forced to sign up to anything.

[B0ycey]

Well lets hope that's where it stops,Vlad attracts a lot of support on here while the west gets another good slapping.

The question you have to ask is which would you rather live under,our system for all its faults or Vlads?

To be fair Cromwell, it isn't so much that Putin gets support on here but people aren't ignorant to hypocrisy and arrogance. We didn't seem to give a shit about the sovereignty of Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya or Syria when we went in and invaded on trump charges. And Russia even played the genocide card for the reason they recognised the sovereignty of Donatsk and Luhansk which is what we do to China when they are educating fucking terrorists in Uighur. But even so I don't support breaking the Minsk agreement and this play was perhaps a step Russia didn't need to take now. But the overall argument they have of NATO expansion is a founded one in my opinion and one I actually agree with Russia on. Ukraine should not be given NATO membership ever because their security assurances could be negotiated in other ways away from NATO. But in any case, given the sanctions are weak and we aren't even given any assistance to Ukraine but words, I suspect the test Putin did to see how the West will react was a success for Russia and if Zelensky had any sense whatsoever, he would preserve what he has and try and gain concessions in other areas from Russia than engage in a war and lose everything. The West seems to have abandoned Ukraine and they need to wake up to that. 

[Thomas]

The usual arrogant response ,but never mind .

Theres nothing arrogant in my response to you  to point out when you are talking guff. Partion didnt stop any civil war , indeed , partition created the necessary envirnoment for a further civil war starting in 1969 and lasting for thirty years. Partition was a great evil perpetuated on the irish , of which the effects are stil being seen today.

You always look for the diversion.

ok im happy to accept i brought the off topic subject of northern ireland up . This was done purely to show your nation has no moral high ground in lecturing others , and therefore both the british and americans should leave things to the international community.

You cant go around lecturing countries to do as you say not as you do , and neither especially in the modern world can the yanks.

As ever with you, distortion of everything said to you. One could say there had been civil war in Ireland, since virtually forever.

if you want to be ridiculous about it , you could say that about every country in europe historically that has had conflict within its borders. Partition didnt stop any civil war as we all know except you.

None of this makes what Putin is conducting in Ukraine ,right for him to do.

Im not condoning anything putin does. I have clearly said let the un and the international community deal with events. What i , and many others are sick of is scottish and english soldiers being dragged into american warmongering by idiots like blair and others , including cameron and johnson.

Of course you new labour supporters think by playing the war monger , it will make you popular both with your boss in washington , and the ordinary people of these islands. Wrong again.

You would think the idiots in your party , and thir supporters like you , would have learned lessons from iraq and afghanistan , but no.

Any more than it stood up as an excuse for Hitler, to invade Poland.

or blair and the new labour party and their infamous non existatnt weapons of mass destruction in iraq.

Russia , has through most of its history, disputed everyone of its European boundaries

so have yours. My country was at war with your country for nearly 1300 years non stop. No where in europe has there been as many battles fought as the scot english border. You could probably argue the same for many nations across the world.

Singling out the russian bear to get brownie points from your bosses in washington impresses no one.

[srb7677]

Using ethnic Russians to undermine the integrity of Ukraine, leading to eventual secession, and in the end probably annexation by Russia does have certain echoes of the Sudetenland in 1938. Between the wars and during WW2 ethnic minorities were often used as trojan horses, and were certainly used as an excuse. Post 1945, in the areas west of the pre-war Soviet Union, the USSR brutally eliminated this problem by the forcible removal of all potential ethnic minorities into their own countries as defined by the post war map. Poles were forcibly removed from what was to become part of Belarus and shoved westwards into Poland. Germans were forcibly expelled from what was East Prussia, Pomerania and Silesia and Poles took over. Ethnic Germans were expelled from Sudetenland and replaced by Czechs. Never again would German minorities here be allowed to pose a problem.

Such brutal ethic rationalisation never took place however either in Ukraine or the Baltic states of Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia, where there are large minorities of ethnic Russians. Clearly in Ukraine Putin is using these ethic Russians to undermine the integrity of the Ukrainian state in very similar ways to those which Hitler used with the Sudeten Germans to undermine the Czech state in 1938-39.

This bodes ill for the Baltic states later on, who are members of both NATO and the EU. Putin is focussing on the Ukraine now but is probably hoping for a Trump reelection in 2024. An America led by Trump is unlikely to stick it's neck out in defence of the Baltic states and Putin probably knows it. He also probably knows that the rest of NATO won't either without American backing. And if he gets away with doing to these nations what he is doing to Ukraine without NATO responding militarily, it would fatally undermine the NATO alliance. The very strength of the alliance is in the fact that it regards an attack on one being considered an attack on all. If that does not hold true the alliance risks falling apart. Because no member could anymore rely upon guaranteed support in the event of an attack.

That is the possible danger that awaits. Europe along with us might need to learn that we cannot always rely on the United States and we might need to be able to stand up to Russia without it. No single European state, including us, is strong enough alone. We would need a European military alliance, with increased military spending by the Europeans. And two of us - the UK and France - possess nuclear weapons. So we and the French would need to be central to such an alliance for maximum deterrence.