Is anyone surprised? Ukraine invaded

[Thomas]

Might be good if you read my posts properly,Ive never said we're perfect,and if the legitimately elected leader of Ukraine appeals for help the least we can do is listen it's not as though he's president for life is it?.

I have read your post properly and i have answered it bit by bit.

Maybe you should listen to the cubans when they ask for help in getting guantanamo bay back from the yanks eh? Or the UN over the chagos islands?

[cromwell]

None of your or my business. We arent russian or ukrainian , so let the international authorities deal with it , as well as the people in the area vlad is selling it to.

What version of democracy is your country selling?

Ignoring the scot devolution ref in 1979 , ignoring your own countries brexit ref for three years , where they had to practically be dragged kicking and screamin to implement it  , refusing to listen to democratic claims for a further scot indy ref despite numerous democratic mandates etc?

Yet we are told the russians dont have democracy?
Why are you insinuating putin bad if you remember the saddam and taliban bad from iraq and afghanistan then?

shouldnt you have learned lessons by now and be a bit more cautious of the bullshit we are being fed by the ususal suspects?

Might be good if you read my posts properly,Ive never said we're perfect,and if the legitimately elected leader of Ukraine appeals for help the least we can do is listen it's not as though he's president for life is it?.

[Thomas]

Partition didn t end the argument, and as we know from the troubles of the sixties going forward, it didn't stop all violence by some way. But the situation at the beginning of the twentieth century was quiet different to what came after partition. Northern paramilitaries  where in large numbers and armed to the teeth, and if the British, had not been successful in implementing that partition there would have been a total state of all out war. So yes it would have been civil war in its most devastating guise. And you know that, but it doesn't suit your slant on British, bad history does it.
If you think Putin should be ignored, and left to do as he wishes because all other countries ,including our own do not have an unblemished past, then you must be prepared to accept that he will do exactly that . And I would ask you when should anyone intercede ? And who of all the sinners has the right to effectively call him to account for his sins.? 

I havent heard so much shite on this forum for a while now. Are you really trying to insinuate partition in ireland was a great and noble deed with the intention of keeping warring factions from each others throat?

Really?

Lets ignore that it wasnt a black and white case , with unionists all over the island , but concentrated by the early 20th century in the north east. Lets ignore for centuries Dublin was the centre of english , then british rule .

If partition was designed to keep catholic from protestant , unionist/loyalist , from nationalist republican , then why was it placed where it is?

The original plan had been to seperate ulsters historic 9 counties from the rest of ireland.

...but only 4 , antrim , armagh , down and derry had clear unionist majorities.

They then settled on 6 , including fermanagh and tyrone , which had clear nationalist majorities.

To quote the british prime minister david lloyd george who said..

"There is no doubt that the majority of people in those two counties ( fermanagh and tyrone) prefer to be with their southern neighbours. It is only through means of coercion you can keep them there ( as part of the 6) , and i do not believe in coercing these people."

That was a quote from your own british prime minister at the time on the boundary commission , where even he was suggesting partition wasnt some noble deed done to keep warring factions apart , but the coercion of two nationalsit units into a unionist state , that was set up as an apartheid state under british rule , with the predictable civil war you say it was designed to stop , happening in the aftermath .

All in all yet more good old fantasy guff.

If you think Putin should be ignored,

I have told you a number of times now , stop misrepresenting me , the international community , through the un , not self apointed warmongering policeman should deal with putin.

[Thomas]

.
None of this excuses Putin, from intruding on the sovereign territory of a European state. So rattle on all you like.
But the multitude of what's wrong in this world does not excuse the creation of more wrong.

the point obviously is the british and americans can't take the moral high ground with the russians when they too are in breach of un resolutions and international law.

Dont say do as we say not as we do .

[Thomas]

what version of democracy is Vlad selling?

None of your or my business. We arent russian or ukrainian , so let the international authorities deal with it , as well as the people in the area vlad is selling it to.

What version of democracy is your country selling?

Ignoring the scot devolution ref in 1979 , ignoring your own countries brexit ref for three years , where they had to practically be dragged kicking and screamin to implement it  , refusing to listen to democratic claims for a further scot indy ref despite numerous democratic mandates etc?

Yet we are told the russians dont have democracy?

Why are you telling me this when I have banged out the same message about Bliar and Bush for years?

Why are you insinuating putin bad if you remember the saddam and taliban bad from iraq and afghanistan then?

shouldnt you have learned lessons by now and be a bit more cautious of the bullshit we are being fed by the ususal suspects?

[Sheepy]

Words words words! Hear them on the news. While everyone is standing in front of cameras with their 5 minutes of fame Putin will run wherever he wants and take at will. It will be fait accompli and the next panic will be trying to get the ground back. All the while Putin laughs.

I hear he expects the sanctions and couldn't give a flying one and expects NATO to fulfill its original agreement. I guess we will see. 

[T00ts]

Words words words! Hear them on the news. While everyone is standing in front of cameras with their 5 minutes of fame Putin will run wherever he wants and take at will. It will be fait accompli and the next panic will be trying to get the ground back. All the while Putin laughs. 

[B0ycey]

Haven't you got the message. Putin won't negotiate.  He deals in fear.

Perhaps. But will never know unless we actually address his concerns than brush them off and tell him to get over it.

[T00ts]

Unfortunately we have to play the cards we are dealt with T00ts. Gas is expensive, short demand and we need gas. It has always been cheaper to buy piped gas than liquidfied so we either go in hard with sanctions and have a gas crisis or we stop playing silly buggers and actually negotiate and talk with Russia addressing their concerns. We are already pushing Ukraine under the bus by stringing them along and making them fight alone, so we might as well finish it off by being honest with them and us that they aren't joining NATO so it be better for them to discuss other ways to secure their future in good faith.

Haven't you got the message. Putin won't negotiate.  He deals in fear. 

[B0ycey]

I suspect everyone is underestimating him. Doesn't anyone see that gas is just one way of becoming indispensable? This has been years in the making. China is doing a very similar thing in various  parts of the world and just recently Russia and China got together. The West has ignored the signs.

Unfortunately we have to play the cards we are dealt with T00ts. Gas is expensive, short demand and we need gas. It has always been cheaper to buy piped gas than liquidfied so we either go in hard with sanctions and have a gas crisis or we stop playing silly buggers and actually negotiate and talk with Russia addressing their concerns. We are already pushing Ukraine under the bus by stringing them along and making them fight alone, so we might as well finish it off by being honest with them and us that they aren't joining NATO so it be better for them to discuss other ways to secure their future in good faith.

[T00ts]

I don't know T00ts, Putin has had 8 years to give Donbass sovereignty, he has resisted so far so you have to question why he has done so now. I won't pretend I know what Putin is thinking, but what I will say is a do think this wasn't the plan even last week. There is confusion whether Russia are peacekeeping in Donbass or at the border but even so he hasn't gone on an offensive yet. So my instinct is that he has done this to get the West to listen to him and not wage war in which he would have a lot of Russian casualties and would have to fight insurgencies indefinitely. He never gave a shit about Donatsk or Luhansk before and so I doubt this is really the objective now but merely the bargain chip. Also, in terms of Ukraine, I think it is now obvious they are alone right now. The UK have sanctioned three f**king banks and Germany has shut a pipeline that was offline. That is the state of Western unity. We are scared to lose the gas it seems.

I suspect everyone is underestimating him. Doesn't anyone see that gas is just one way of becoming indispensable? This has been years in the making. China is doing a very similar thing in various  parts of the world and just recently Russia and China got together. The West has ignored the signs.

[B0ycey]

Since opening this thread I have watched with interest both how it has developed and also the comment here. I stated at the beginning that I thought Putin would eventually invade - he obviously waited for the Winter Olympics to finish so that China got front pages and no sooner done than he signs the papers . He was described as rambling in his hour long speech to Russians explaining his reasons but in all honesty does anyone really believe that this man is not all about power?

We are bouncing around now doling out sanctions while I feel sure he laughs in his vodka. He is, by all accounts personally rich beyond belief while his country struggles and has his position for life. I doubt very much that whatever sanctions the rest of us contrive he has already factored them in. I believe that he has known for a very long time that this was his plan. I really don't understand why anyone in the numerous governments around the world thought for a minute that they would talk him out of it. He has tested the will over the last few weeks and is a man where only real action speaks. He won't stop here unless someone physically stops him.

I don't know T00ts, Putin has had 8 years to give Donbass sovereignty, he has resisted so far so you have to question why he has done so now. I won't pretend I know what Putin is thinking, but what I will say is a do think this wasn't the plan even last week. There is confusion whether Russia are peacekeeping in Donbass or at the border but even so he hasn't gone on an offensive yet. So my instinct is that he has done this to get the West to listen to him and not wage war in which he would have a lot of Russian casualties and would have to fight insurgencies indefinitely. He never gave a shit about Donatsk or Luhansk before and so I doubt this is really the objective now but merely the bargain chip. Also, in terms of Ukraine, I think it is now obvious they are alone right now. The UK have sanctioned three fucking banks and Germany has shut a pipeline that was offline. That is the state of Western unity. We are scared to lose the gas it seems. 

[Sampanviking]

None of this excuses Putin, from intruding on the sovereign territory of a European state.

Well here is the thing, nothing has actually changed since the situation began in 2014.
Do not the Donbas republics or other parts of Ukraine have any right of self determination?
The West created R2P so why howl when another country evokes the same right?

How is the Russian involvement in Ukraine and the recognition of the Donbas any different from NATO's involvement in Yugoslavia and the separation of Kosovo from the rest of Serbia
How is the Russian presence in these republics less legitimate than the US and NATO presence in the Kurdish areas of Syria?

The West loudly trumpets how it is the standard bearer of the Rules based International Order (as opposed to International Law) yet howls when other do exactly what it does. A Rules based International Order which says do as I say and not as I do, is typically a system known by another name.

[Good old]

Theres nothing arrogant in my response to you  to point out when you are talking guff. Partion didnt stop any civil war , indeed , partition created the necessary envirnoment for a further civil war starting in 1969 and lasting for thirty years. Partition was a great evil perpetuated on the irish , of which the effects are stil being seen today.
ok im happy to accept i brought the off topic subject of northern ireland up . This was done purely to show your nation has no moral high ground in lecturing others , and therefore both the british and americans should leave things to the international community.

You can't go around lecturing countries to do as you say not as you do , and neither especially in the modern world can the yanks.
if you want to be ridiculous about it , you could say that about every country in europe historically that has had conflict within its borders. Partition didnt stop any civil war as we all know except you.
Im not condoning anything putin does. I have clearly said let the un and the international community deal with events. What i , and many others are sick of is scottish and english soldiers being dragged into american warmongering by idiots like blair and others , including cameron and johnson.
Absolutely 
Of course you new labour supporters think by playing the war monger , it will make you popular both with your boss in washington , and the ordinary people of these islands. Wrong again.

You would think the idiots in your party , and thir supporters like you , would have learned lessons from iraq and afghanistan , but no. or blair and the new labour party and their infamous non existatnt weapons of mass destruction in iraq.
so have yours. My country was at war with your country for nearly 1300 years non stop. No where in europe has there been as many battles fought as the scot english border. You could probably argue the same for many nations across the world.

Singling out the russian bear to get brownie points from your bosses in washington impresses no one.

Partition didn t end the argument, and as we know from the troubles of the sixties going forward, it didn't stop all violence by some way. But the situation at the beginning of the twentieth century was quiet different to what came after partition. Northern paramilitaries  where in large numbers and armed to the teeth, and if the British, had not been successful in implementing that partition there would have been a total state of all out war. So yes it would have been civil war in its most devastating guise. And you know that, but it doesn't suit your slant on British, bad history does it.
If you think Putin should be ignored, and left to do as he wishes because all other countries ,including our own do not have an unblemished past, then you must be prepared to accept that he will do exactly that . And I would ask you when should anyone intercede ? And who of all the sinners has the right to effectively call him to account for his sins.?  

[T00ts]

Since opening this thread I have watched with interest both how it has developed and also the comment here. I stated at the beginning that I thought Putin would eventually invade - he obviously waited for the Winter Olympics to finish so that China got front pages and no sooner done than he signs the papers . He was described as rambling in his hour long speech to Russians explaining his reasons but in all honesty does anyone really believe that this man is not all about power?

We are bouncing around now doling out sanctions while I feel sure he laughs in his vodka. He is, by all accounts personally rich beyond belief while his country struggles and has his position for life. I doubt very much that whatever sanctions the rest of us contrive he has already factored them in. I believe that he has known for a very long time that this was his plan. I really don't understand why anyone in the numerous governments around the world thought for a minute that they would talk him out of it. He has tested the will over the last few weeks and is a man where only real action speaks. He won't stop here unless someone physically stops him.