Is anyone surprised? Ukraine invaded

[Thomas]

I am no fan of Keir Starmer nor most of the Labour Party now as you know. But I do believe in fair comment.

But comparing a man who used - perhaps even abused - the democratic parliamentary process in an attempt to frustrate Brexit which a narrow majority of the people - though not your own - voted for, with a vicious psychopathic despot who has launched a military invasion of another state, is a comparison too far. It is not like for like. One is obviously far worse, not to say far more murderous, than the other.

Starmer is a proven liar. Unlike Putin, I would not yet say he is a proven psychopath.

We need to stop the obsession with viewing world events through the prism of the EU issue, which some clearly remain obsessed by.

To compare what is happening in the Ukraine now with any of the trials and tribulations of Brexit is laughable really.

Are you denying my point about starmers anti democratic actions stands?

You can talk about parliamentary process all you like , you can talk about narrow majorities to de ligitimise brexit all you like , it doesnt in any way shape or form negate my comment on starmer and your former despicable anti democratic labour party.

Why am i not surprised you come on here to defend starmer?

You know , as i do , the anti democratic events between 2016 to 2019 , not to mention the fact under milliband your former party didnt even want the people tio have a say on the festering 40 year sore of europe , is a lead weight that will hang abround the necks of the labour party , their leader ,and the wider british left for a long time to come.

[johnofgwent]

I was thinking Vlad hasn't thought this through, all he had to do was cause a bit of fear and a civil war in say Belarus send all the migrants to Ukraine and take over that way. They wouldn't even have a channel to worry about.

No, I think he's thought it through perfectly.

If there were any real opposition, his troops would have been vapourised by drone strikes and the like.

I find it highly amusing the leftard snowflake rottweiler ARSEbook pace "occupy democrats" who once criticised Trump (that's all they do by the way, even now) by saying "if you think your citizens need an assault rifle you're a special kind of stupid" seem awful quiet now the Ukrainian President is doing just that. The Swiss of course do it routinely, because they remember ... 

Right now what is "the west" doing.

Well, they've set up sanctions that will mean GazProm have a lot more oil and gas to give the Russians this year, because they won't be supplying the EU.

And Russia will not go hungry this year because the Ukraine is to the Soviet state what Rhodesia once was to the British Empire, a breadbasket Bountiful in its cornucopia of crops and livestock, whose outputvsank like a rock under Mugabe. Sadly the EU will have to look elsewhere. Hopefully sleepy Joe will let us have some of his genetically mutated crops, or else....

Fact: we won't do anything serious to Putin, his puppets or the former Soviet state he runs because we (the rest of the world) need his produce more than he needs our custom.

[Sheepy]

Apparently the world's biggest financial movers and shakers are quaking in their boots.

Russian oligarchs have been severely impacted by the news the ICC are actively withdrawing from their cosy chats over future Olympic location awards and the humungus money laundering opportunities they promise.

And now their brothers and sisters in bribery and corruption in the sport of pig bladder kicking are getting nervous about THEIR retirement plans in the wake of Poland's refusal to play Russia in the latest  round of "kick the bladder under the bar, not over it, arsehole" tournaments ...

https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-invasion-poland-refuses-to-play-world-cup-play-off-match-against-russia-12551913

I was thinking Vlad hasn't thought this through, all he had to do was cause a bit of fear and a civil war in say Belarus send all the migrants to Ukraine and take over that way. They wouldn't even have a channel to worry about. 

[johnofgwent]

What's happening Generals I have been a bit busy, has Vlad declared undying love for us yet? or has he tried a grovelling apology? war is hell.

Apparently the world's biggest financial movers and shakers are quaking in their boots.

Russian oligarchs have been severely impacted by the news the ICC are actively withdrawing from their cosy chats over future Olympic location awards and the humungus money laundering opportunities they promise.

And now their brothers and sisters in bribery and corruption in the sport of pig bladder kicking are getting nervous about THEIR retirement plans in the wake of Poland's refusal to play Russia in the latest  round of "kick the bladder under the bar, not over it, arsehole" tournaments ...

https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-invasion-poland-refuses-to-play-world-cup-play-off-match-against-russia-12551913

[cromwell]

Top notch stuff then, Boris and Joe teaching him a damn good lesson, handing out a good thrashing no doubt, I guess he will get detention as well.

Well it's all a bit half hearted Germany,France and Italy don't want it affecting their economies.

[Sheepy]

Yeah it seems it is hell and all may not be going as easily as he thought.
But I'm not a general,no one is on here nearest to military we have are DD and Nick.

Top notch stuff then, Boris and Joe teaching him a damn good lesson, handing out a good thrashing no doubt, I guess he will get detention as well.

[cromwell]

What's happening Generals I have been a bit busy, has Vlad declared undying love for us yet? or has he tried a grovelling apology? war is hell.

Yeah it seems it is hell and all may not be going as easily as he thought.
But I'm not a general,no one is on here nearest to military we have are DD and Nick.

[Sheepy]

What's happening Generals I have been a bit busy, has Vlad declared undying love for us yet? or has he tried a grovelling apology? war is hell.

[B0ycey]

We are apart but not that much. Destabilising any area of this world is not ideal. And at best mostly with selfish motive. And yes it poses it's own questions .but when it comes to destabilising Europe , we talk of our own neighbourhood which is obviously far more of a selfish concern. I make no bones we can and will be bad our national motives have always been selfish and bad , for what we believe to be our own good. But we have given up trying to invade neighbours in Europe. And we have always opposed those that do so for expansionist motives.
We are bad mate, we didn't bomb the shit out of Germany because we didn't have one  bad bone in us.
I agree this may all prove a wrong move anyway for Putin, but in the mean time he is just another dude bad enough to throw doubts on the peace of our neighbourhood. And if he pushes it I expect us to be every bit and more as bad as he wants to be. I know why he does what he does, I say he is wrong and shouldn't even think of testing the water any further. Let's hope this all blows over . And in the mean time let's give  some thought to the poor sods dieing at Putins hands, while we converse at leisure.

This is never blowing over soon. But in any case, as I said Russia has legitimate concerns of NATO expansion and until we in the West address that with actual fair dialogue I don't see how you are expecting stabilisation in Europe. 

[cromwell]

We are apart but not that much. Destabilising any area of this world is not ideal. And at best mostly with selfish motive. And yes it poses it's own questions .but when it comes to destabilising Europe , we talk of our own neighbourhood which is obviously far more of a selfish concern. I make no bones we can and will be bad our national motives have always been selfish and bad , for what we believe to be our own good. But we have given up trying to invade neighbours in Europe. And we have always opposed those that do so for expansionist motives.
We are bad mate, we didn't bomb the shit out of Germany because we didn't have one  bad bone in us.
I agree this may all prove a wrong move anyway for Putin, but in the mean time he is just another dude bad enough to throw doubts on the peace of our neighbourhood. And if he pushes it I expect us to be every bit and more as bad as he wants to be. I know why he does what he does, I say he is wrong and shouldn't even think of testing the water any further. Let's hope this all blows over . And in the mean time let's give  some thought to the poor sods dieing at Putins hands, while we converse at leisure.

Yeah it does sound selfish but it's close to home (relatively)but all human life matters....or should.
So here we are quietly nattering or disagreeing and those poor sods are fighting for their existence.  

[srb7677]

I think you'll find if Putin demanded the UK rejoin the EU so he can run his tanks over us too when he decides to overrun Brussels, Starmer would be more than happy to applaud.

And yes, I see exactly what Thomas is getting at.

Starmer is calling for those who believe democracy over dictatorship to act against Putin while he did, in reality, attempt to throw the baby, the bathwater and the whole bloody bathroom down in front of the 17.4 million hoping to sabotage their democratic voice.

He is a piss poor candidate to plead for action this day.

Perhaps he would like to sign the petition on change.irg to tell Putin to stop.

Go give your head a wobble.

To compare Starmer's attempts to derail Brexit within the rules of our parliamentary system with Putin's in vasion of the Ukraine is truly daft.

And exposes something of an obsession with the EU issue as if that is in any way relevant.

[Good old]

You aren't really addressing what I am saying to you I am afraid. We have already had this story playout. Perhaps this war will destabilise Europe but we in the West didn't really care about stabilisation in the ME, or as it happens Afghanistan which is neighboured by Russia. But that wasn't really my point to begin with. Putin is merely playing the Bush/Blair handbook. That is a false flag narrative for his geopolitical gain. If we are to keep on with the "Putin Bad" narrative then we also must understand we are in essence bad surely? There will be people in the world saying Karma right now I guess. But in any case, this war in my opinion was caused by arrogance. We can't say we tried diplomacy when we told Russia to get over NATO expansion. Now they don't need to worry about expansion in Ukraine at least. They soon will be their occupiers. And like all occupiers, it is very labour intensive keeping it under control. So I guess that will be karma for Russia as well. There is no point following Bush and Blairs example. I never agreed with this strategy like everyone else I guess. But at the same time I can understand why it happened and can see why Russia would see NATO at their border as a threat.

We are apart but not that much. Destabilising any area of this world is not ideal. And at best mostly with selfish motive. And yes it poses it's own questions .but when it comes to destabilising Europe , we talk of our own neighbourhood which is obviously far more of a selfish concern. I make no bones we can and will be bad our national motives have always been selfish and bad , for what we believe to be our own good. But we have given up trying to invade neighbours in Europe. And we have always opposed those that do so for expansionist motives.
We are bad mate, we didn't bomb the shit out of Germany because we didn't have one  bad bone in us.
I agree this may all prove a wrong move anyway for Putin, but in the mean time he is just another dude bad enough to throw doubts on the peace of our neighbourhood. And if he pushes it I expect us to be every bit and more as bad as he wants to be. I know why he does what he does, I say he is wrong and shouldn't even think of testing the water any further. Let's hope this all blows over . And in the mean time let's give  some thought to the poor sods dieing at Putins hands, while we converse at leisure.

[B0ycey]

No this isn't the usual I think Putin is bad. This is Putin, making sure we know he is bad. The only thing he leaves us to guess is how bad. And there is every reason to compare Hitler, or even the Kaiser, he is attacking a virtually defenceless near European neighbour with little or no reason other than an expansion of his influence. The very behaviour that has happened in the early stages of both of the World wars on European soil.
Yes this could yet back fire on him, I seriously hope it does. In any case ,his reasons , are all spurious, in particular genocide,.it's total rubbish. Iraq, was in the main a big mistake,.Sadam, was a murderous arsehole, but in lives  lost and reasons given it was a huge tragic mistake . However Sadam had practised genocide no doubt what so ever.  Afghanistan, whole story tells there were some very good reasons to get in that country and bring down some every dangerous individuals, and anyone that supported them. Is it to be forgotten that those characters recently harboured and trained in Afghanistan, had recently flown two fully laden civilian planes full with innocent passengers into two of the worlds tallest buildings killing all on board as well  as 3,000 more in and around those buildings. Two other planes full again of innocents were also flown into the ground.That was the tip of the iceberg , as these groups had been committing Huge atrocities all around the world killing thousands more  And remembering the immensity of those actions .  Do you or anyone else seriously think what came later was if we had only not provoked them avoidable , or made worse by simply talking or worse still not looking for at least for atonement, and attempt take out at least some of the cancer. No there was and probably could never be a happy ever after conclusion . But what happened was not without the severest of provocation , all to often passed by as if it was not so. Becoming nothing more than another case of nasty westerners beating up poor defenceless third worlders , for absolutely no reason what so ever.
Is this to be thought an excuse for this cowardly incursion on a neighbour ? Is this anywhere comparable to Putins feeble excuses for endangering the peace of Europe ,in a catastrophic possibly end of all wars way.
I do seriously hope he gets stuck in Ukraine, and learns a lesson that calms him down, but I will not hold my breath.

You aren't really addressing what I am saying to you I am afraid. We have already had this story playout. Perhaps this war will destabilise Europe but we in the West didn't really care about stabilisation in the ME, or as it happens Afghanistan which is neighboured by Russia. But that wasn't really my point to begin with. Putin is merely playing the Bush/Blair handbook. That is a false flag narrative for his geopolitical gain. If we are to keep on with the "Putin Bad" narrative then we also must understand we are in essence bad surely? There will be people in the world saying Karma right now I guess. But in any case, this war in my opinion was caused by arrogance. We can't say we tried diplomacy when we told Russia to get over NATO expansion. Now they don't need to worry about expansion in Ukraine at least. They soon will be their occupiers. And like all occupiers, it is very labour intensive keeping it under control. So I guess that will be karma for Russia as well. There is no point following Bush and Blairs example. I never agreed with this strategy like everyone else I guess. But at the same time I can understand why it happened and can see why Russia would see NATO at their border as a threat.

[Good old]

Meh, this is the usual Putin is bad bollocks we like to preach in the West. Putin isn't Hitler. If you listen to what he says, this war is entirely justifiable in terms of the Russian narrative. Ukraine caused genocide in Donbass, he has executed a peacekeeping mission to get rid of the Nazis in Ukraine. Do I buy any of that? Not really, that is a false flag statement which we in the West perfected. Remember the dodgy dossier of WMDs, Afghanistan was to bring democracy, Libya to free their people from tyranny and Syria was to help the moderate rebels, one of whom was IS until they started cutting people heads off. If Putin starts killing off Ukrainians in concentration camps and going beyond his mission of Ukraine, then perhaps we can use Hitler as an example. But until then Putin is no different to Blair and Bush. A chancer who is destabilising the world for Russians gain and now is having to face the 'No to War' protests in Russia and around the world.

If I am being honest with you Good Old, what I am reading and seeing right now is exactly the same things we saw with Iraq. Ukraine isn't going to be easy to take over but it will get took over soon enough. Russia will be fighting insurgents who will be hiding away from the cities indefinitely and his focus for years to come will be on maintaining what he has and not to advance further. Even the Roman empire collapsed by over stretching Good Old. So Russia will I expect now have their Iraq moment.

No this isn't the usual I think Putin is bad. This is Putin, making sure we know he is bad. The only thing he leaves us to guess is how bad. And there is every reason to compare Hitler, or even the Kaiser, he is attacking a virtually defenceless near European neighbour with little or no reason other than an expansion of his influence. The very behaviour that has happened in the early stages of both of the World wars on European soil.
Yes this could yet back fire on him, I seriously hope it does. In any case ,his reasons , are all spurious, in particular genocide,.it's total rubbish. Iraq, was in the main a big mistake,.Sadam, was a murderous arsehole, but in lives  lost and reasons given it was a huge tragic mistake . However Sadam had practised genocide no doubt what so ever.  Afghanistan, whole story tells there were some very good reasons to get in that country and bring down some every dangerous individuals, and anyone that supported them. Is it to be forgotten that those characters recently harboured and trained in Afghanistan, had recently flown two fully laden civilian planes full with innocent passengers into two of the worlds tallest buildings killing all on board as well  as 3,000 more in and around those buildings. Two other planes full again of innocents were also flown into the ground.That was the tip of the iceberg , as these groups had been committing Huge atrocities all around the world killing thousands more  And remembering the immensity of those actions .  Do you or anyone else seriously think what came later was if we had only not provoked them avoidable , or made worse by simply talking or worse still not looking for at least for atonement, and attempt take out at least some of the cancer. No there was and probably could never be a happy ever after conclusion . But what happened was not without the severest of provocation , all to often passed by as if it was not so. Becoming nothing more than another case of nasty westerners beating up poor defenceless third worlders , for absolutely no reason what so ever.
Is this to be thought an excuse for this cowardly incursion on a neighbour ? Is this anywhere comparable to Putins feeble excuses for endangering the peace of Europe ,in a catastrophic possibly end of all wars way.
I do seriously hope he gets stuck in Ukraine, and learns a lesson that calms him down, but I will not hold my breath.

[B0ycey]

I  am not saying you do say what Putin, does is  right or legal. My point is that knowing of our own historical and more up to date transgressions, no matter where in the world those transgressions may have occurred.  is of little consequence in the politics of European domination. As I said in another post , on the basis of that approach ,Hitler could have done no wrong,and it follows that Putin ,will be doing no wrong , if we are as concerned about our past conduct as we are about his present and past conduct.
Yes diplomatically we may have failed ,we certainly did  in 1939. That can not cripple our response . It's not war yet. But I suggest that is up to Putin,as to what comes next. He is the one actually risking the open use of overwhelming military force on a less powerful near neighbour.
Russia.has said , Putin, has said , gives us what we want or else. Even extended to a threat of more suffering than we would ever have known, if we should try and stop him.
That's a good place to start diplomacy,talks, I don't think. It's commendable to see other points of view , and I don't dispute Putin might have been headed off if the west was not so complacent. But it is what it is . And it can be taken now that if Ukraine concerns him for the reasons he has given, then just as in all Russian history, the status of everyone of his near neighbours concerns  him. And lay somewhere within his ambitions for Russian expansion , armed or otherwise.
That as it has always proved to be is a threat to the peace of all Europe, even the world.
We will see what develops. Seeing his point of view will only help if he himself is willing to amend his ambition. If he  does not . And he continues to make moves that threaten to impinge on the way of life and actual sovereignty of his European neighbours then why he should do that, is going to be of little use in making sure Our point of view is not overwhelmed. By an, as great or greater concern for our own record,  The biggest problem now is we can not now trust him to leave the rest of his neighbours alone. And if Europe, is to remain relatively peaceful. He has to whether we can see his point of view or not.

Meh, this is the usual Putin is bad bollocks we like to preach in the West. Putin isn't Hitler. If you listen to what he says, this war is entirely justifiable in terms of the Russian narrative. Ukraine caused genocide in Donbass, he has executed a peacekeeping mission to get rid of the Nazis in Ukraine. Do I buy any of that? Not really, that is a false flag statement which we in the West perfected. Remember the dodgy dossier of WMDs, Afghanistan was to bring democracy, Libya to free their people from tyranny and Syria was to help the moderate rebels, one of whom was IS until they started cutting people heads off. If Putin starts killing off Ukrainians in concentration camps and going beyond his mission of Ukraine, then perhaps we can use Hitler as an example. But until then Putin is no different to Blair and Bush. A chancer who is destabilising the world for Russians gain and now is having to face the 'No to War' protests in Russia and around the world. 

If I am being honest with you Good Old, what I am reading and seeing right now is exactly the same things we saw with Iraq. Ukraine isn't going to be easy to take over but it will get took over soon enough. Russia will be fighting insurgents who will be hiding away from the cities indefinitely and his focus for years to come will be on maintaining what he has and not to advance further. Even the Roman empire collapsed by over stretching Good Old. So Russia will I expect now have their Iraq moment.