Is anyone surprised? Ukraine invaded

[Thomas]

Thought this was an interesting article.

Experts Warned For Years That NATO Expansion Would Lead To This

Chris Hedges introduces his latest article for Scheer Post, titled "Chronicle of a War Foretold", with the following:
"After the fall of the Soviet Union, there was a near universal understanding among political leaders that NATO expansion would be a foolish provocation against Russia. How naive we were to think the military-industrial complex would allow such sanity to prevail."
Imperial narrative managers have been falling all over themselves working to dismiss and discredit the abundantly evidenced idea that Russia's invasion of Ukraine was due largely to Moscow's fear of NATO expansion and the refusal of Washington and Kyiv to solidify a policy that Ukraine would not be added to the alliance.
Take Michael McFaul, the mass media's go-to pundit on all things Russia:




It makes sense that they would have to do this. After all, if westerners were to get it into their heads that this whole terrible war could have been avoided by simply solidifying a policy of neutrality for Ukraine and issuing a guarantee that it would never be added to NATO, they would begin asking why this did not happen. NATO powers had no interest in adding Ukraine to the alliance anyway, so it doesn't really make sense to refuse to make such low-cost concessions if the only alternative is mass military slaughter. I mean, unless your goal was to provoke mass military slaughter to advance your own geostrategic objectives.

So they work hard to present the narrative that the invasion has nothing to do with NATO at all, and occurred solely because Putin is an evil madman who hates freedom and wants to destroy democracy.

https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2022/02/25/experts-warned-for-years-that-nato-expansion-would-lead-to-this/

[Thomas]

As far as Starmer is concerned. You are more in love with Putin,.

Now now good old . I cant take all the credit. Starmers right hand man mandelson is more in putins back pocket than i , a mere internet pleb is. How much dirty russian money has peter the europhile actually pocketed?

[Good old]

ok no worries barry . Sorry if i appeared a bit short with you . just couldnt let starmers hypocrisy go , the man makes me utterly sick and his false posturing .
Fully agree, by and large an interesting topic. Who was it that said a week is a long time in politics? Last week we were bored of pretty much little happening  , and now this.

The lefties wont be happy its taken the heat off boris.


ok interesting didint know that barry.

I see trump and his supporters are having a field day with biden and the democrats , macron in trouble too with his domestic audience with putin humiliating him , and all round fun and games across europe and the uk as politicans of all colours run a mile to dissassociate themselves with putin and russian money over ukraine.

As far as Starmer is concerned. You are more in love with Putin,. A man that has in the last four days alone put the blood of hundreds if not thousands directly on his own hands for no other real reason than he can. You couldn't ignore a man that has come nowhere near being placed in a position of being even judged to be more hypocritical than the moronic Putin,let alone put the peace of all Europe at risk by devastating a peaceful nation , causing the inevitable deaths of innocent Ukrainians.  a lot about you Thomas.
Yes even in Iran, there are people willing to condemn Putin, without attacking less dangerous characters than him. In fact as it transpires he has few friends, to the degree that those that are friends of his tend to stand out.
And as ever you then show your usual glee in the fact that western politicians across the board are not beyond criticism . Yes in general they  have trusted the devil and the devil has kicked them in the crutch. Ho ,ho ,ho . Let's applaud any sign of disarray.i

[Thomas]

Yes a point I made yesterday
https://pol-tics.com/eu/30/so-we-might-yet-still-be-eu-citizens-after-all-but-we-dont-know/5072/msg90517#msg90517

I just feel sorry for the Ukrainian people.

I know you do. Thats international politics , no good or bad guys , just countires and thier elites agendas , andthe ordinary people who suffer because of it , and war is shit. I also like many of us felt sorry for the afghans , syrians , libyans ,iraqis and many many more after the worlds policemen had given them a using but there you go.

[cromwell]

Certainly is cromwell. After arming and funding the ukrainians , the "west" is now abandoning the ukrainians to their fate it seems to me.

The uk is being mocked ( and other nations) for not lifting restrictions and visa allowances for ukrainian refugees to allow them to escape to the uk .

Another american proxy war with russia  , and europe is yet again being left to clear up the yank  mess.

Yes a point I made yesterday
https://pol-tics.com/eu/30/so-we-might-yet-still-be-eu-citizens-after-all-but-we-dont-know/5072/msg90517#msg90517

I just feel sorry for the Ukrainian people.

[Thomas]

And ordinary people.

Certainly is cromwell. After arming and funding the ukrainians , the "west" is now abandoning the ukrainians to their fate it seems to me.

The uk is being mocked ( and other nations) for not lifting restrictions and visa allowances for ukrainian refugees to allow them to escape to the uk .

Another american proxy war with russia  , and europe is yet again being left to clear up the yank  mess.

[cromwell]

Chinese embassy points to 'real threat to the world' — RT World News

After reading the comments section I didn't know if I should put it here or under Covid. The first causality of war is the truth.

And ordinary people.

[Thomas]

Apparently Russia vetoed a UN condemnation of the invasion of Ukraine. China abstained.

Well what a surprise

I think the UN route was a non starter anyway john , as both the uk and the usa have abandoned any chance of taking the moral high ground with putin over ukraine with their own breaches of un resolutions over the chagos islands.

International politics appears to boil down to might is right.

[Thomas]

The acid test of whether you are being directed by reason or whether reason is being over-ridden by malice is whether you are ever capable of giving credit where credit is due. I loathe the Tories but can still think of things some of them have said and done that I agree with, and could happily say so. Like most of us I never let malice overide reason and will give credit where credit is due = as I see it - to anyone.

Yet Thomas seems incapable of that with Labour just as Smurf is with the Tories. The fact that we can see that undermines their arguments in certain areas in advance in our eyes, because they have an emotionally-driven agenda that lays behind any facts they choose to present. It is hard to reason rationally with any mindset incapable of giving credit where credit is due if ever you touch upon their particular bugbear - unless perhaps you are joining them in criticising it.

Just been over to the other thread , and after making three off topic posts about me on here , as ever because you have an axe to grind , lo and behold you make a post over there telling us "you dont have the time to read the thread and answer my points"

As ever steve , why am i not surprised?

[Thomas]

You have too much faith in the infallibility of your memory.

You have often badly misremembered things I have supposedly said or done in the past, so I have little faith in the efficacy of your memory.

At the risk of being off topic , perhaps you can tell me what i have misremembered about you steve , and take it to the other thread i started about starmer and labour anti democracy hypocrisy.

Don't be daft. You know how much I loathe Starmer. Butr I am here to defend the truth as I see it

.Same , i will reply to you in the other thread. See you there.

[johnofgwent]

Apparently Russia vetoed a UN condemnation of the invasion of Ukraine. China abstained. 

Well what a surprise 

[johnofgwent]

Meanwhile, I hear protestors in Iran are backing the Ukraine, which is much to the Ayatollah's chagrin as they are backing Putin 100%.
Which, kind of suggests - they are both in an axis of evil.

Iran (and Iraq) always seemed a bit wierd. At uni there were four distinct groups from these two countries, with the common factor being their declared attitude to Saddam's Ba'ath party. The Pro-Ba'ath and Anti Ba'ath student societies collected the factions from both countries, but rarely would any of the four speak directly to another

Barking mad.

But I had no idea there was a pro Ukraine faction in Iran. And I'm guessing once the Mullahs religious police find them, there won't be

[Sheepy]

Chinese embassy points to 'real threat to the world' — RT World News

After reading the comments section I didn't know if I should put it here or under Covid. The first causality of war is the truth. 

[srb7677]

And we used to complain about Smurf making every thread "Tory Bad".
Do you really want to do the opposite, Thomas and make every thread "Labour Bad"?

The acid test of whether you are being directed by reason or whether reason is being over-ridden by malice is whether you are ever capable of giving credit where credit is due. I loathe the Tories but can still think of things some of them have said and done that I agree with, and could happily say so. Like most of us I never let malice overide reason and will give credit where credit is due = as I see it - to anyone.

Yet Thomas seems incapable of that with Labour just as Smurf is with the Tories. The fact that we can see that undermines their arguments in certain areas in advance in our eyes, because they have an emotionally-driven agenda that lays behind any facts they choose to present. It is hard to reason rationally with any mindset incapable of giving credit where credit is due if ever you touch upon their particular bugbear - unless perhaps you are joining them in criticising it.

[srb7677]

the welsh brit nat living in canada .( from memory

You have too much faith in the infallibility of your memory.

You have often badly misremembered things I have supposedly said or done in the past, so I have little faith in the efficacy of your memory.