rishi trying to stop brexit

[Thomas]

The question is will NI leave to join IRL, if the answer is no, that's it.

No thats not the question. I addressed this earlier.

There is no extra bit that says that NI abandons the protection the GFA

Rubbish. The GFA was only ever intednded to be a short term fix. Unionists want it abandoned  , nationalists dont need it if they get thier way.

Nothing stays the same for ever gerry. As i said earlier , its a question of time , and is time on your side? No i dont think so.

This arrangement is what brexiteers voted for,

Did they ? Thats news to me. Brexiters ,if you mean the public who voted for brexit , were told brexsit was a uk ref and the uk had to leave if they won. That hasnt happened. In political terms , it is indeed what labour and tory voted for , but it wasnt what all the political parties in the uk supported.

The uk parliament as you told us is sovereign , and it can overtrun any agreement it like ,especially withtin its own state.

Like i said ,its a question of timescale and how long it survives. You hope it lasts to damage brexit , it think events will over take it one way or the other.

Bit what's the problem, the majority in NI support the current arrangement, it's only a minority of unionists that would destroy NI to suckle the English master, but they'll get used to it to.

The majority in northern ireland can see the limits of the protocoal ,and are uneasy about it lasting. They also support my call for a referendum in the coming years on ni place i nthe uk , so once again timescale is the important factor.

Much as you dnt want to discusss northern irelands internal politics , are you awars of the upcoming elections and the chance sinn fein could become the biggest party and potentially hold the office of first minister?

As i said , i doubt vey much you europhiles will have this to cling to for much longer. A week is a long time in politics.

[GerryT]

yawn. Double yawn.

the position hasnt changed......yet.......the question is , how long can things remain as they are ?

Despite your denial , we all know your great hope is the protocol can be maintained long enough to try and damage brexit and tie the uk back into the EU. For the moment , you are managing it , but medium term?

We can both agree at the moment there is no indication any referendum is imminent. Things can change really quickly though , and we could see the position that sinn fein become the largest party in the N.I assembly this very year. That itself , with the possibility of a sinn fein first minister , could send shockwaves that reverberate all the way through England.

The political situation is fluid. Things are changing in northern ireland minute by minute day by day.

While polls still show the majority want to remain in the UK , the demographic gap between orange and green has almost disappeared. The minority who favour reunification is growing , and unfortunately for you , polls also show a majority in northern ireland want a referendum on remaining in the uk in the coming years.

So the question gerry for you europhiles is how long you can string the current status quo out before the patience of the electorate snaps once again.

The idea northern ireland as a six county statelet  , never mind the various treaties that bind it  , can remain intact forevermore is really nothing more than your deluded wishfull thinking.

The question is will NI leave to join IRL, if the answer is no, that's it. There is no extra bit that says that NI abandons the protection the GFA gave the nationalists and the Johnson NI protocol & TCA that he reaffirmed those protections. If NI votes to remain in the UK in 7yrs another vote to leave can take place, and again in 7 more years....repeat and wash. It's never a done deal for nationalists, it's not an either or situation, it's a question of when.

This arrangement is what brexiteers voted for, as people keep saying "we knew what we voted for", Johnson ousted may and won a great majority for his plan, which was the NI protocol and TCA. You'll get used to it.
Bit what's the problem, the majority in NI support the current arrangement, it's only a minority of unionists that would destroy NI to suckle the English master, but they'll get used to it to.
What your not factoring in is Johnson or any other English politician could care one bit about NI and what's far more important to them is the trade agreement with the EU, do you honestly think Johnson will walk away from that to satisfy a small amount of people in NI.

[Thomas]

[Thomas]

This has been discussed before and the position hasn't really changed.
The brexit deal was signed and we now have agreements in place, the NI protocol within the TCA (trade and co-operation agreement). Johnson should know, he was PM and he finalised the negotiations, he changed them to suit what he claimed were "oven ready" and "a fantastic deal", he signed these.

Their done and dusted, but like most agreements they will be modified as time goes by, changes tend to be specific and not usually substantive. Johnson knows he can't trigger art16 without good reason, and at that the triggering would be time limited and for specific reasons, to think a reason would be checks at the border is nonsense as that's a substantive part of the agreement. If Johnson thought he could, he would have triggered Art16 by now, he should know, their his agreements, he must be well versed in their construction. All tha's happening with Art16 is noise, Johnson loves noise.

If comical that some posts above are looking to blame "remainers" for how brexit is turning out, brexit is done, all that's happening now is commentary on how its panning out, hardly the fault of "remainers".

As for your proposal for a "IN-OUT" vote, why would any Govt force a region of it's country to vote to be thrown out of it's country. And why do you think another country would automatically take that region on. Your plan is very very flawed. The GFA is there to protect the MINORITY, at the time the Catholic minority was given the guarantee that their position would be protected, their culture respected and if at a future date a majority of the NI population wanted to unite the island and if Ireland agreed then and only then would  the country be one again. What your proposing would go against the whole purpose of the GFA, which was to protect the nationalist minority, what your proposing is to take that away if they are still the minority. So, what you suggest is never going to happen.

What you have is a uncomfortable position that the UK put itself in. The people of NI are in a win win position and their economy is starting to show the benefits of dual membership (UK and EU) With time they will prob look to continue to benefit from the advantage they have. The only people saying it's not working are rabid unionists that would do anything to be attached to the union jack, idiots, they should have supported May's backstop deal and NI wouldn't be segregated as it is today.

So what's the solution, well do nothing, this is brexit and if my memory serves me right, people on here keep saying they knew what brexit was and what they voted for, so be happy, this is what you voted for. 

yawn. Double yawn.

the position hasnt changed......yet.......the question is , how long can things remain as they are ?

Despite your denial , we all know your great hope is the protocol can be maintained long enough to try and damage brexit and tie the uk back into the EU. For the moment , you are managing it , but medium term?

We can both agree at the moment there is no indication any referendum is imminent. Things can change really quickly though , and we could see the position that sinn fein become the largest party in the N.I assembly this very year. That itself , with the possibility of a sinn fein first minister , could send shockwaves that reverberate all the way through England.

The political situation is fluid. Things are changing in northern ireland minute by minute day by day.

While polls still show the majority want to remain in the UK , the demographic gap between orange and green has almost disappeared. The minority who favour reunification is growing , and unfortunately for you , polls also show a majority in northern ireland want a referendum on remaining in the uk in the coming years.

So the question gerry for you europhiles is how long you can string the current status quo out before the patience of the electorate snaps once again.

The idea northern ireland as a six county statelet  , never mind the various treaties that bind it  , can remain intact forevermore is really nothing more than your deluded wishfull thinking.

[Barry]

Hmm

When the Prime Minister has to be told to go, attention focusses on the Home Office, Foreign Office and Chancellor as the obvious replacements.

So, Priti Vacant is a dead loss, and does anyone here know who any of the others are ? I don't, apart from Rishi

So, I can't help wondering if this is a Screw Rishi's Chances move ...

Exactly that. Spot on, JoG. 

[johnofgwent]

There is reported friction between the two but there always seems to be between No10 and No11 traditionally. Rishi has got too big for his very small boots and has been manoeuvring ever since he arrived at the Treasury as Cumming's blue eyed boy. Pritti is a non starter, and Liz too for me. A name just arrived in the mix is Tom Tudendhat who lacks ministerial experience but is seen as Centre Right and a bit of a straight talker. Ex army he could be up and coming but this is not his time yet although some MPs are gathering around him apparently. He would be  complete break perhaps but is not a council house boy that so many of the electorate seem to think would be suitable.

Thinking back to the "fee gawds sake, stop Tarzan" fever that saw John Major propelled to power, he might be a useful idiot in the race to deinstall Boris.

[T00ts]

Hmm

When the Prime Minister has to be told to go, attention focusses on the Home Office, Foreign Office and Chancellor as the obvious replacements.

So, Priti Vacant is a dead loss, and does anyone here know who any of the others are ? I don't, apart from Rishi

So, I can't help wondering if this is a Screw Rishi's Chances move ...

There is reported friction between the two but there always seems to be between No10 and No11 traditionally. Rishi has got too big for his very small boots and has been manoeuvring ever since he arrived at the Treasury as Cumming's blue eyed boy. Pritti is a non starter, and Liz too for me. A name just arrived in the mix is Tom Tudendhat who lacks ministerial experience but is seen as Centre Right and a bit of a straight talker. Ex army he could be up and coming but this is not his time yet although some MPs are gathering around him apparently. He would be  complete break perhaps but is not a council house boy that so many of the electorate seem to think would be suitable.

[johnofgwent]

Hmm

When the Prime Minister has to be told to go, attention focusses on the Home Office, Foreign Office and Chancellor as the obvious replacements.

So, Priti Vacant is a dead loss, and does anyone here know who any of the others are ? I don't, apart from Rishi 

So, I can't help wondering if this is a Screw Rishi's Chances move ...

[GerryT]

i suggested a way to break the northern ireland deadlock was to offer a referendum on either staying in a brexit uk , , or leaving the uk and reuniting with the south and staying in the EU.

Clearly , at the moment we have a half way house which is unpalatable to many  , not to mention against the very essence of the brexit referendum.

If northern ireland voted to stay in a brexit uk , then it demolishes the protocol , and neither nationalists nor europhiles can argue withthe result. Vice versa if they vote opposite.

I suspect that is where ultimately it is headed , at the minute , we seem to have mud slinging and threats with out any action......for the minute.

Currently we have unionists threatening to stop checks between N.I and U.K

UK won't step in if DUP orders halt to Brexit checks at ports, says Foreign Secretary Liz Truss

We need to find 'sweet spot' in protocol talks adds Foreign Secretary but speaking to the Belfast Telegraph, insists deal is 'doable'

Foreign Secretary Liz Truss has said it's a "matter for the Executive" if officials are ordered by Edwin Poots to stop checks required under the NI Protocol.

In an interview with the Belfast Telegraph, she said she was hopeful that the EU and UK would find a "sweet spot" in their negotiations — led by Ms Truss herself and European Commission vice-president Maros Sefcovic — which would resolve problems with the protocol while still protecting the EU single market.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/politics/uk-wont-step-in-if-dup-orders-halt-to-brexit-checks-at-ports-says-foreign-secretary-liz-truss-41286122.html

This has been discussed before and the position hasn't really changed.
The brexit deal was signed and we now have agreements in place, the NI protocol within the TCA (trade and co-operation agreement). Johnson should know, he was PM and he finalised the negotiations, he changed them to suit what he claimed were "oven ready" and "a fantastic deal", he signed these.

Their done and dusted, but like most agreements they will be modified as time goes by, changes tend to be specific and not usually substantive. Johnson knows he can't trigger art16 without good reason, and at that the triggering would be time limited and for specific reasons, to think a reason would be checks at the border is nonsense as that's a substantive part of the agreement. If Johnson thought he could, he would have triggered Art16 by now, he should know, their his agreements, he must be well versed in their construction. All tha's happening with Art16 is noise, Johnson loves noise.

If comical that some posts above are looking to blame "remainers" for how brexit is turning out, brexit is done, all that's happening now is commentary on how its panning out, hardly the fault of "remainers".

As for your proposal for a "IN-OUT" vote, why would any Govt force a region of it's country to vote to be thrown out of it's country. And why do you think another country would automatically take that region on. Your plan is very very flawed. The GFA is there to protect the MINORITY, at the time the Catholic minority was given the guarantee that their position would be protected, their culture respected and if at a future date a majority of the NI population wanted to unite the island and if Ireland agreed then and only then would  the country be one again. What your proposing would go against the whole purpose of the GFA, which was to protect the nationalist minority, what your proposing is to take that away if they are still the minority. So, what you suggest is never going to happen.

What you have is a uncomfortable position that the UK put itself in. The people of NI are in a win win position and their economy is starting to show the benefits of dual membership (UK and EU) With time they will prob look to continue to benefit from the advantage they have. The only people saying it's not working are rabid unionists that would do anything to be attached to the union jack, idiots, they should have supported May's backstop deal and NI wouldn't be segregated as it is today.

So what's the solution, well do nothing, this is brexit and if my memory serves me right, people on here keep saying they knew what brexit was and what they voted for, so be happy, this is what you voted for.   

 

[T00ts]

You should be adding the House of Commons and the House of Lords to that list Toots of remainers  Toots . It has indeed been the problem of our exit .

You are right of course but I sense that the hidden remainer mass running Whitehall, that functions at every level of our government and actually actions the rules is no longer neutral and hasn't been since Blair. Parliament may well be clear cut but Chinese whispers function throughout those not answerable to us.

[Streetwalker]

i suggested a way to break the northern ireland deadlock was to offer a referendum on either staying in a brexit uk , , or leaving the uk and reuniting with the south and staying in the EU.

Clearly , at the moment we have a half way house which is unpalatable to many  , not to mention against the very essence of the brexit referendum.

If northern ireland voted to stay in a brexit uk , then it demolishes the protocol , and neither nationalists nor europhiles can argue withthe result. Vice versa if they vote opposite.

I suspect that is where ultimately it is headed , at the minute , we seem to have mud slinging and threats with out any action......for the minute.

Currently we have unionists threatening to stop checks between N.I and U.K

UK won't step in if DUP orders halt to Brexit checks at ports, says Foreign Secretary Liz Truss

We need to find 'sweet spot' in protocol talks adds Foreign Secretary but speaking to the Belfast Telegraph, insists deal is 'doable'

Foreign Secretary Liz Truss has said it's a "matter for the Executive" if officials are ordered by Edwin Poots to stop checks required under the NI Protocol.

In an interview with the Belfast Telegraph, she said she was hopeful that the EU and UK would find a "sweet spot" in their negotiations — led by Ms Truss herself and European Commission vice-president Maros Sefcovic — which would resolve problems with the protocol while still protecting the EU single market.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/politics/uk-wont-step-in-if-dup-orders-halt-to-brexit-checks-at-ports-says-foreign-secretary-liz-truss-41286122.html

Totally agree Thomas , the useless buggers dealing with the NI protocol will pass the buck to the Irish to sort out for themselves (and rightly so) Its  a problem only they can solve . 

[Streetwalker]

Just reading that link again it also confirms what I have long thought that we still have a Whitehall that is essentially Remain. I think they have responsibility for many of the problems that we have had since the Referendum.

You should be adding the House of Commons and the House of Lords to that list Toots of remainers  Toots . It has indeed been the problem of our exit . 

[T00ts]

i suggested a way to break the northern ireland deadlock was to offer a referendum on either staying in a brexit uk , , or leaving the uk and reuniting with the south and staying in the EU.

Clearly , at the moment we have a half way house which is unpalatable to many  , not to mention against the very essence of the brexit referendum.

If northern ireland voted to stay in a brexit uk , then it demolishes the protocol , and neither nationalists nor europhiles can argue withthe result. Vice versa if they vote opposite.

I suspect that is where ultimately it is headed , at the minute , we seem to have mud slinging and threats with out any action......for the minute.

Currently we have unionists threatening to stop checks between N.I and U.K

UK won't step in if DUP orders halt to Brexit checks at ports, says Foreign Secretary Liz Truss

We need to find 'sweet spot' in protocol talks adds Foreign Secretary but speaking to the Belfast Telegraph, insists deal is 'doable'

Foreign Secretary Liz Truss has said it's a "matter for the Executive" if officials are ordered by Edwin Poots to stop checks required under the NI Protocol.

In an interview with the Belfast Telegraph, she said she was hopeful that the EU and UK would find a "sweet spot" in their negotiations — led by Ms Truss herself and European Commission vice-president Maros Sefcovic — which would resolve problems with the protocol while still protecting the EU single market.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/politics/uk-wont-step-in-if-dup-orders-halt-to-brexit-checks-at-ports-says-foreign-secretary-liz-truss-41286122.html

Let's hope Liz is right but I am wary of EU negotiations. They often seem to talk the talk but when time comes to walk the walk they develop a limp. A bit of a dog's breakfast either way. Varadkar really did one on us via his having the EU ear at the beginning of Brexit negotiations. Our position isn't helped by a vindictive little French man as EU President for the coming months.

[Thomas]

I must have missed your ref idea - what would be the question? EU? UK? United Ireland?

i suggested a way to break the northern ireland deadlock was to offer a referendum on either staying in a brexit uk , , or leaving the uk and reuniting with the south and staying in the EU.

Clearly , at the moment we have a half way house which is unpalatable to many  , not to mention against the very essence of the brexit referendum.

If northern ireland voted to stay in a brexit uk , then it demolishes the protocol , and neither nationalists nor europhiles can argue withthe result. Vice versa if they vote opposite.

I suspect that is where ultimately it is headed , at the minute , we seem to have mud slinging and threats with out any action......for the minute.

Currently we have unionists threatening to stop checks between N.I and U.K

UK won't step in if DUP orders halt to Brexit checks at ports, says Foreign Secretary Liz Truss

We need to find 'sweet spot' in protocol talks adds Foreign Secretary but speaking to the Belfast Telegraph, insists deal is 'doable'

Foreign Secretary Liz Truss has said it's a "matter for the Executive" if officials are ordered by Edwin Poots to stop checks required under the NI Protocol.

In an interview with the Belfast Telegraph, she said she was hopeful that the EU and UK would find a "sweet spot" in their negotiations — led by Ms Truss herself and European Commission vice-president Maros Sefcovic — which would resolve problems with the protocol while still protecting the EU single market.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/politics/uk-wont-step-in-if-dup-orders-halt-to-brexit-checks-at-ports-says-foreign-secretary-liz-truss-41286122.html

[T00ts]

i know toots , you have mentioned you arent convinced of sunak a number of times.

I think to come away for the moment from personalities , the northern ireland issue is something that is going to have to be dealt with sooner or later.

I suggested a referendum  , others scoffed at this as it didnt suit their politics. Brexiters demand northern ireland leaves the EU with the rest of the uk , remainers like gerry hope northern ireland is an achillies heel for brexit.

Its a festering sore that to be frank is an international blow to the uks prestige.

Someone somewhere before too long is going to lose patience .

I must have missed your ref idea - what would be the question? EU? UK? United Ireland?