But I hate to break the news

[Thomas]

Like I said our system ain't perfect but but it's damn sight better than Putins.

Proof?

[cromwell]

I've never agreed with much Scott777 has to say, but I think his point is we are rapidly approaching a time where we CAN'T express any view which doesn't accord with the status quo - and this is a LIBERAL society we are supposed to be living in, not a totalitarian one. The fact is , you aren't free to express any opinion you like anymore, no matter how you want to dress it up or gloss over it. Thats the truth.

Putin (it seems) has got out of his dollar denominated securities and bought gold. Lots of it too. He's already sitting on a lot of natural resources like oil and gas, at a time when inflation looks like getting out of control in the west. He's either exceedingly clever or exceedingly lucky. I know which one I think it is

There are videos of Russian tanks at high speed north of Kiev and their Paras at the airport. Classic surgical military operation in progress or accident of circumstance? Meanwhile, we have sleepy Joe and Boris the public schoolboy.

If I was a betting man....

Like I said our system ain't perfect but but it's damn sight better than Putins.

[DeppityDawg]

Let me ask you another question,given we accept there are failings in our system but do you seriously believe you could've voiced your views on the pandemic you have and in the wider world physically show your displeasure let alone even have the different voices we have on here if they ran contra to the govt line were we in China or Russia?

I've never agreed with much Scott777 has to say, but I think his point is we are rapidly approaching a time where we CAN'T express any view which doesn't accord with the status quo - and this is a LIBERAL society we are supposed to be living in, not a totalitarian one. The fact is , you aren't free to express any opinion you like anymore, no matter how you want to dress it up or gloss over it. Thats the truth.

Putin (it seems) has got out of his dollar denominated securities and bought gold. Lots of it too. He's already sitting on a lot of natural resources like oil and gas, at a time when inflation looks like getting out of control in the west. He's either exceedingly clever or exceedingly lucky. I know which one I think it is

There are videos of Russian tanks at high speed north of Kiev and their Paras at the airport. Classic surgical military operation in progress or accident of circumstance? Meanwhile, we have sleepy Joe and Boris the public schoolboy.

If I was a betting man....

[Scott777]

Let me ask you another question,given we accept there are failings in our system but do you seriously believe you could've voiced your views on the pandemic you have and in the wider world physically show your displeasure let alone even have the different voices we have on here if they ran contra to the govt line were we in China or Russia?

Nope.  Alas, the world is shifting towards global totalitarianism.  So if people don't get active, 1984 will be reality.  The fact that we still have some freedom is only because the elite must change it slowly.  The totalitarian tiptoe.

[cromwell]

If I formed a party, it would fail, because it costs lots of money to compete.  The parties that are successful are funded by the corporations and elite, which means you can only compete if you support them.  But the elite only want more power, so will only fund you if you comply.  Honest politicians always fail.  Hence, as Machiavelli said, the prince who manipulates the minds of men craftily, will achieve the most.

Jeremy Corbyn is a good example.  He was once a critic of the EU, and quite honest.  They always have to change to achieve anything.

Let me ask you another question,given we accept there are failings in our system but do you seriously believe you could've voiced your views on the pandemic you have and in the wider world physically show your displeasure let alone even have the different voices we have on here if they ran contra to the govt line were we in China or Russia?

[Scott777]

Yes I can see your reasoning,or at least some of it,however if you think all available politicians liars then you need to form a party that represents what you want.

You must realise that activism could lead to anarchy,it is wrong if it's used solely for the benefit of a minority though I think it fine if used in a peaceful manner and is acceptable to the majority.

If I formed a party, it would fail, because it costs lots of money to compete.  The parties that are successful are funded by the corporations and elite, which means you can only compete if you support them.  But the elite only want more power, so will only fund you if you comply.  Honest politicians always fail.  Hence, as Machiavelli said, the prince who manipulates the minds of men craftily, will achieve the most.

Jeremy Corbyn is a good example.  He was once a critic of the EU, and quite honest.  They always have to change to achieve anything.

[cromwell]

Trudeau didn't even turn up at his own vote to bring in emergency powers .  The vote was seen as a vote of confidence by some . But yes things are always a bit odd in Canada ,its what sets it apart
Trucker Convoy: MP's approve use of Emergencies Act in House of Commons vote | CP24.com

The Flag thing is best explained here 

What's the Deal With the Canada Trucker Protests? (foreignpolicy.com)

Hope that gives some idea to what's going on

Well I wasn't  far wrong.

[Streetwalker]

Deppity has a weakness for anyone who drives large and expensive motor cars, so he will automatically support the Truckers, regardless of their politics. That said, things in Canada seem a bit odd. Any sensible politician would sought some sort of deal, particularly when it involves shifting thousands of tons of lorries and their bolshie drivers. But Trudeau has just gone at it like a bull at a gate.

And the stories coming out of Canada are a bit lopsided. Apparently the Truckers are waving Confederate flags. Why is that? The Civil War was an American thing. And the police are going to confiscate the drivers' pets. So the Truckers are a bunch of White Supremacist cat lovers. But we don't know because no one, certainly not the BBC, appears to have interviewed any of the drivers.

Strange business

Trudeau didn't even turn up at his own vote to bring in emergency powers .  The vote was seen as a vote of confidence by some . But yes things are always a bit odd in Canada ,its what sets it apart 
Trucker Convoy: MP's approve use of Emergencies Act in House of Commons vote | CP24.com

The Flag thing is best explained here  

What's the Deal With the Canada Trucker Protests? (foreignpolicy.com)

Hope that gives some idea to what's going on 

[cromwell]

I want to pick that apart (I know you would like it).  I used to think that's a legitimate democratic process, but over the years have realised it doesn't work.

First of all, you don't boot someone out, you boot someone in.  I know you know that, but I'm just clarifying for sake of argument.  The flaw is that there may be no one you can boot in, who you also trust to do what they say they will do.  Politicians are 99% liars, and follow the principles of Machiavelli.  Your vote has no real power, anyway.  It doesn't give you any power, it merely gives power to someone else, who you hope will do what they said, i.e. representative democracy.  I would argue representative democracy is not true democracy for this reason.  Democracy (demos kratos) does not mean power of a representative, it means power of the people.

Having thought about this problem for a while, I realise that democracy doesn't work by voting, it only works by doing.  If you recall, Brexit was won by the vote, and yet almost ignored.  If you want to change something, you have to kick up a stink, i.e. activism.  The truckers are doing exactly what they need to.  The pressure is what will make Justin Castreau change path.

Yes I can see your reasoning,or at least some of it,however if you think all available politicians liars then you need to form a party that represents what you want.

You must realise that activism could lead to anarchy,it is wrong if it's used solely for the benefit of a minority though I think it fine if used in a peaceful manner and is acceptable to the majority.

[Scott777]

Canadians should they oppose his measures in enough numbers have the option of booting him out at the next election don't they?

I want to pick that apart (I know you would like it).  I used to think that's a legitimate democratic process, but over the years have realised it doesn't work.

First of all, you don't boot someone out, you boot someone in.  I know you know that, but I'm just clarifying for sake of argument.  The flaw is that there may be no one you can boot in, who you also trust to do what they say they will do.  Politicians are 99% liars, and follow the principles of Machiavelli.  Your vote has no real power, anyway.  It doesn't give you any power, it merely gives power to someone else, who you hope will do what they said, i.e. representative democracy.  I would argue representative democracy is not true democracy for this reason.  Democracy (demos kratos) does not mean power of a representative, it means power of the people.

Having thought about this problem for a while, I realise that democracy doesn't work by voting, it only works by doing.  If you recall, Brexit was won by the vote, and yet almost ignored.  If you want to change something, you have to kick up a stink, i.e. activism.  The truckers are doing exactly what they need to.  The pressure is what will make Justin Castreau change path.

[cromwell]

Deppity has a weakness for anyone who drives large and expensive motor cars, so he will automatically support the Truckers, regardless of their politics. That said, things in Canada seem a bit odd. Any sensible politician would sought some sort of deal, particularly when it involves shifting thousands of tons of lorries and their bolshie drivers. But Trudeau has just gone at it like a bull at a gate.

And the stories coming out of Canada are a bit lopsided. Apparently the Truckers are waving Confederate flags. Why is that? The Civil War was an American thing. And the police are going to confiscate the drivers' pets. So the Truckers are a bunch of White Supremacist cat lovers. But we don't know because no one, certainly not the BBC, appears to have interviewed any of the drivers.

Strange business

Why is that? Trumpian fallout,I criticised those who complained when he was elected that it was wrong,it wasn't.......if the yanks want to elect a tosser that's their affair.

It doesn't change the fact he's a bad loser,to another tosser.

I remember reading somewhere nearing the end the Romans always cheered on the clown as Caesar as the empire failed,I suspect this is what's happening in the good ole US of A.

The Canadian truckers whatever their grievance have seen lots of crap on the web and social mejia and adopted it and the flag.

[Borchester]

I wasn't ignoring you and Trudeau is no hero of mine.

My point is what happens in Europe is a lot closer to home,covid is on the wane not as a virus but how govts are controlling it.

Canadians should they oppose his measures in enough numbers have the option of booting him out at the next election don't they? That's how it works except in China and Russia so excuse me if I don't accept I have little room to be critical of both of them.

Funnily enough I was going to post today an excellent piece by Peter Hitchens on Russia it's there on the daily mail site,still being a limp wristed liberal what do I know?

Deppity has a weakness for anyone who drives large and expensive motor cars, so he will automatically support the Truckers, regardless of their politics. That said, things in Canada seem a bit odd. Any sensible politician would sought some sort of deal, particularly when it involves shifting thousands of tons of lorries and their bolshie drivers. But Trudeau has just gone at it like a bull at a gate.

And the stories coming out of Canada are a bit lopsided. Apparently the Truckers are waving Confederate flags. Why is that? The Civil War was an American thing. And the police are going to confiscate the drivers' pets. So the Truckers are a bunch of White Supremacist cat lovers. But we don't know because no one, certainly not the BBC, appears to have interviewed any of the drivers.

Strange business

[cromwell]

I mention Trudeau because he's a recognised hero of liberals not just in his own country but in the west in general. And he's just invoked emergency powers of a kind not seen in a western country before, including the power to close bank accounts and seize assets (basically of people he disagrees with)

Still, if this doesn't bother you because it's a long way away, ignore me. You just might want to reflect on the thought that if this is how "liberals" feel entitled to act, you don't have much room to be critical of Putin or China.

I wasn't ignoring you and Trudeau is no hero of mine.

My point is what happens in Europe is a lot closer to home,covid is on the wane not as a virus but how govts are controlling it.

Canadians should they oppose his measures in enough numbers have the option of booting him out at the next election don't they? That's how it works except in China and Russia so excuse me if I don't accept I have little room to be critical of both of them.

Funnily enough I was going to post today an excellent piece by Peter Hitchens on Russia it's there on the daily mail site,still being a limp wristed liberal what do I know?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10540829/PETER-HITCHENS-blame-arrogant-foolish-West-Ukraine-crisis.html

[DeppityDawg]

I thought you understood me better,anyway Trudeau is a long way from here and Putin is a threat insofar he will do as the Chinese wish in order to get what he wishes.

Ive already laid out in another thread how things lie are down to dopey Joes lacklustre leadership.

We live in strange and dangerous times but given your take I don't expect you to agree with me.

I mention Trudeau because he's a recognised hero of liberals not just in his own country but in the west in general. And he's just invoked emergency powers of a kind not seen in a western country before, including the power to close bank accounts and seize assets (basically of people he disagrees with)

Still, if this doesn't bother you because it's a long way away, ignore me. You just might want to reflect on the thought that if this is how "liberals" feel entitled to act, you don't have much room to be critical of Putin or China.

[cromwell]

But of course.

Tbf though, it's so called 'liberal' governments of various shades (not just left) who have instigated the biggest kerbs on public freedom in our lifetimes and it's so called 'progressives' who are largely responsible for the ever widening and repressive cancel culture we are now having foisted on us.

I'm not expecting you to agree with me, but the biggest threat to our freedom is not coming from Putin mate, it's a lot more insipid than that. Just look at what Justin Trudeau has done in the last few days.

I thought you understood me better,anyway Trudeau is a long way from here and Putin is a threat insofar he will do as the Chinese wish in order to get what he wishes.

Ive already laid out in another thread how things lie are down to dopey Joes lacklustre leadership.

We live in strange and dangerous times but given your take I don't expect you to agree with me.