EU report claims Brits 'didn't know what they were doing' when voting for Brexit

[HallowedBrexit]

I gave you examples, you first said they weren't examples and then you ignored them. You have your examples, discuss if you want.

Even though it pains me here's another example. The UK Japan trade deal limits the UK's use of state aid.
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/somebody-needs-to-explain-sovereignty-to-johnson-before-it-is-too-late-1.4416087

Its the fundamental basis for a trade deal, you give something to get something. This ties you, your just being purposefully obtuse.

What you don't get Gerry is that we want nothing to do with the EU.

No EU, no dogs, no Irish is the sign that should be stickied to the front door of every pub in brave old England. As long as we have people like Lord Frost on our side, people like Baroness Catherine Hoey, we are not afraid of the EU.
Once more Britain stands alone and once more Britain will be victorious. With the EU on brink of self destruction, it won't be long until the Irish beggars will be once more knocking on the door of our United Kingdom.

Sadly, through their antics, the EU and the Micks have pissed away all goodwill we British had for them. 

[johnofgwent]

Its the fundamental basis for a trade deal, you give something to get something. 

Indeed it is

But the thing is, while we were trapped in your madhouse of ever closer federalists, we were PREVENTED by them from agreeing anything ourselves. 

Now we can do what we like. 

Thats Sovereignty 

[Nick]

I gave you examples

You mentioned the EU, no other trade deal and certainly no mention of deals taking away sovereignty. 

You're just fudging as you can't name any. 

[cromwell]

I gave you examples, you first said they weren't examples and then you ignored them. You have your examples, discuss if you want.

Even though it pains me here's another example. The UK Japan trade deal limits the UK's use of state aid.
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/somebody-needs-to-explain-sovereignty-to-johnson-before-it-is-too-late-1.4416087

Its the fundamental basis for a trade deal, you give something to get something. This ties you, your just being purposefully obtuse.

Gerry what you don't grasp is (and Borky tried to tell you) we're not much interested in the eu or what they think of us either,most people thought the common market was ok but didn't buy in to the political union so we voted to leave.

You seem to think we should be ready to spell out all the crap on the sides of a bus and more,we don't care have left and don't want to go back.

[GerryT]

So you said, give some examples.

I gave you examples, you first said they weren't examples and then you ignored them. You have your examples, discuss if you want.

Even though it pains me here's another example. The UK Japan trade deal limits the UK's use of state aid.
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/somebody-needs-to-explain-sovereignty-to-johnson-before-it-is-too-late-1.4416087

Its the fundamental basis for a trade deal, you give something to get something. This ties you, your just being purposefully obtuse. 

[Nick]

As you sign more trade deals around the globe there will be terms in each contract that will chip away at your Sovereignty,

So you said, give some examples.

[Nick]

HAHA, good one. A big reason for leaving the EU was to get back the UK sovereignty, to take back control of your borders. 31st Jan 2020 at 11pm you left and got back all your sovereignty. A big brexit box ticked. Sovereignty, the 350m a week, borders and keeping out the refugees were the big 4 for leaving, but sovereignty was the biggest. You didn't have to sign a deal with the EU, then you could have done what you wanted. But Johnson struck a deal requiring a border in the middle of the UK, at least May's deal avoided that.  The EU doesn't control your border, the UK does, nothing to do with the EU. But Johnson has decided that having a border in the middle of the UK is not as important as having a trade deal with the EU.

But that's not what was being discussed. What was being discussed is the failure to control the borders it does have, around the Island of GB. The reason being its costs a lot of money, it causes a lot of delays. He needed to employ approx. 50,000 officials and train them and build buildings for them. But he's more interested in giving his Russian mates Lordships and create a smugglers paradise.
Your not following what's actually happened. I really think the title of this topic was made for you. Don't you get it, it was all lies:

Sovereignty: You were never taking it back for very long, the plan was to always sign more deals and give it away again. Not to the same extent but then the deal you got isn't hardly as good as what you had.
NHS 350m a week: The net payment to the EU was below 190m a week and the additional costs since brexit is way above that. There never was any additional money, only additional cost from leaving.
Borders:  Now this is a surprise, you got full control of your borders (excl NI) and what did you do, protect them ? no way, lets just leave them open.
Refugees: Well that one is on track, the new planed one way ticket to shitsville will sort that one, gold star for Johnson for delivering on his promise.

As you sign more trade deals around the globe there will be terms in each contract that will chip away at your Sovereignty, this is not an issue for most countries as the benefits outweigh loss. It's a trade off. Trade deals are specific and not all countries want the same thing from the UK.

You're in denial if you think that the UK hasn't lost any Sovereignty since leaving the EU. If there were no trade deals signed then you would be practically 100% sovereign, that's what taking back control means.

Brits 'didn't know what they were doing' when voting for Brexit

You're that far up the EU's arse you can't answer move away from it. The U.K. is locked into the EU because of John Major: sovereignty hasn't been ceded further. 

Last time of asking, where has the U.K. handed over sovereignty based on a trade deal since leaving the EU?

[GerryT]

The part of the EU deal that takes away parts of our sovereignty is not new and was not added as part of the trade deal. The EU controlled aspects of our borders before and still does.

HAHA, good one. A big reason for leaving the EU was to get back the UK sovereignty, to take back control of your borders. 31st Jan 2020 at 11pm you left and got back all your sovereignty. A big brexit box ticked. Sovereignty, the 350m a week, borders and keeping out the refugees were the big 4 for leaving, but sovereignty was the biggest. You didn't have to sign a deal with the EU, then you could have done what you wanted. But Johnson struck a deal requiring a border in the middle of the UK, at least May's deal avoided that.  The EU doesn't control your border, the UK does, nothing to do with the EU. But Johnson has decided that having a border in the middle of the UK is not as important as having a trade deal with the EU.

But that's not what was being discussed. What was being discussed is the failure to control the borders it does have, around the Island of GB. The reason being its costs a lot of money, it causes a lot of delays. He needed to employ approx. 50,000 officials and train them and build buildings for them. But he's more interested in giving his Russian mates Lordships and create a smugglers paradise.

Again, where is the deal that has TAKEN AWAY our sovereignty then?

Your not following what's actually happened. I really think the title of this topic was made for you. Don't you get it, it was all lies:

Sovereignty: You were never taking it back for very long, the plan was to always sign more deals and give it away again. Not to the same extent but then the deal you got isn't hardly as good as what you had.
NHS 350m a week: The net payment to the EU was below 190m a week and the additional costs since brexit is way above that. There never was any additional money, only additional cost from leaving.
Borders:  Now this is a surprise, you got full control of your borders (excl NI) and what did you do, protect them ? no way, lets just leave them open.
Refugees: Well that one is on track, the new planed one way ticket to shitsville will sort that one, gold star for Johnson for delivering on his promise.

As you sign more trade deals around the globe there will be terms in each contract that will chip away at your Sovereignty, this is not an issue for most countries as the benefits outweigh loss. It's a trade off. Trade deals are specific and not all countries want the same thing from the UK.

You're in denial if you think that the UK hasn't lost any Sovereignty since leaving the EU. If there were no trade deals signed then you would be practically 100% sovereign, that's what taking back control means.

Brits 'didn't know what they were doing' when voting for Brexit 

[Nick]

Huh ??  this trade deal is new, it is not the same as when you were a member, you don't honestly think you would get the same "features" when you're outside the EU as when you were a member, did you ?

The part of the EU deal that takes away parts of our sovereignty is not new and was not added as part of the trade deal. The EU controlled aspects of our borders before and still does.
Again, where is the deal that has TAKEN AWAY our sovereignty then?

[GerryT]

Sovereignty: The authority of a state to govern itself or another state.

How is agreeing an aspect of a trade deal giving away sovereignty? We agree an aspect of trade based on their chosen aspect of trade, that is not ceding sovereignty.

Exactly, and because the UK signed the CTA which includes the NI protocol, the UK isn't a complete sovereign state in regard to controlling your countries borders. You can't have any border controls along your land border with another Country.

If you want to get a more detailed view on sovereignty this is a quick read. 
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2020/12/23/the-sovereignty-illusion-freedom-to-set-ones-own-rules-has-a-high-price/ 

"We have demonstrated that the freedom to set one's own trade rules comes at a significant cost, and in any event, that it is not, even within the confines of the WTO, absolute." 

That says it all, even under WTO you're ceding some sovereignty. Every trade deals binds you to another sovereign state and in regard to the terms of the deal neither country is fully sovereign once that is done, in regard to those terms. From then on decisions have to be made jointly if a change is required, we are seeing that with the UK-EU deal all ready.
 

The Trade deal with the EU is not a new deal and going back to the Maastricht issue, John Major tied us into this monster and made it as difficult as possible for the UK to extricate it's self from it. So NO, the EU deal cannot be claimed as giving away powers.

Huh ??  this trade deal is new, it is not the same as when you were a member, you don't honestly think you would get the same "features" when you're outside the EU as when you were a member, did you ? 

To extract yourself from the EU is so simple, submit article50 and leave. The issue you had is you were a member for so long you needed to replicate some services and setup new ones (border checks being one) that didn't exist. That's just more cost, paperwork and bureaucracy.  

So up til now you have not given any example of the UK giving away sovereignty, only not taking back as much as we wanted.

Try Again !!

Yes I have, but you're not getting it. The border issue, level playing field clauses, there are loads of examples.

[Nick]

Every trade deal you agree x to get

Sovereignty: The authority of a state to govern itself or another state.

How is agreeing an aspect of a trade deal giving away sovereignty? We agree an aspect of trade based on their chosen aspect of trade, that is not ceding sovereignty.

Take for example the easiest trade deal in human history, the one with the EU

The Trade deal with the EU is not a new deal and going back to the Maastricht issue, John Major tied us into this monster and made it as difficult as possible for the UK to extricate it's self from it. So NO, the EU deal cannot be claimed as giving away powers.


So up til now you have not given any example of the UK giving away sovereignty, only not taking back as much as we wanted.

Try Again !!

[GerryT]

Do tell, which trade deal has the UK signed since Brexit that gives away our sovereignty? 

Every single one of them, and you call me dumb.

Every trade deal you agree x to get y. Take for example the easiest trade deal in human history, the one with the EU. One example, the UK have agreed as part of that trade deal the NI protocol keeping part of the UK effectively in the EU, that means the UK can't open the "border" between GB and NI and it can't put up the land border controls between itself and a foreign country, Ireland. If you don't believe me see what Brandon Lewis had to say yesterday  https://twitter.com/itvpeston/status/1521927079931035648

That is one example, there are dozens in that trade deal that ties the UK to making decisions jointly with the EU, in other words the UK has ceded it ability to make autonomous decisions. Every trade deal you sign you chip away at the ability to operate as a true sovereign state.

That's a side of Brexit seldom discussed, leave the EU where you had a veto and ability to make/reject EU rules and then join a trade deal where you are the much smaller party and have no real say in the making of EU laws and still need the agreement from the EU in certain areas. There is also far more bureaucracy and red tape since you have left, so much so you can't even control your border checks.

[Nick]

But were you told before the 2019 GE that signing those trade deals would be ceding powers to a foreign state. Because that's whatever trade deals do, they chip away at your sovereignty, the closer the deal the less you have total control. You're upset with one but delighted with the other, why's that ?

Do tell, which trade deal has the UK signed since Brexit that gives away our sovereignty?  

[GerryT]

Exactly, this was outlined before the Referendum and was understood before the 2019 GE. No mention of Maastricht before JM was voted in, so as I said: the voting public had no say in the EU.

But were you told before the 2019 GE that signing those trade deals would be ceding powers to a foreign state. Because that's whatever trade deals do, they chip away at your sovereignty, the closer the deal the less you have total control. You're upset with one but delighted with the other, why's that ?

[Nick]

It's a simple question, [highlight]the current govt said before the election that the UK would leave the EU and sign more and better trade deals around the world.[/highlight] I'm just curious if you were in favour of that or not. As I'm slow a yes/no answer is probably best.

Exactly, this was outlined before the Referendum and was understood before the 2019 GE. No mention of Maastricht before JM was voted in, so as I said: the voting public had no say in the EU.