Keir starmers hypocrisy talking over democracy over dictatorship

[cromwell]

Wasn't it Thomas who said that it was anti democratic to try to stop Brexit from happening, but once it was completed, it would be find to campaign to reverse it or stat e that it was a mistake.

And yet now, anyone who says a word against Brexit is still told they are a traitor, even though Brexit is completed and done.

Luckily, I have completely changed my mind and have become a Brexit supporter.  I am happy to admit when I am wrong, and I can now clearly see by the way that things are going, that Brexit is, and will continue to be, a massive success.

Do I detect some heavy sarcasm? 

[Javert]

Wasn't it Thomas who said that it was anti democratic to try to stop Brexit from happening, but once it was completed, it would be find to campaign to reverse it or stat e that it was a mistake.

And yet now, anyone who says a word against Brexit is still told they are a traitor, even though Brexit is completed and done.

Luckily, I have completely changed my mind and have become a Brexit supporter.  I am happy to admit when I am wrong, and I can now clearly see by the way that things are going, that Brexit is, and will continue to be, a massive success.

[Borchester]

Keir starmers british imperial labour party , and their right wing orange order candidates .....

'I want to make Scottish Labour fit for the 21st Century' said Anas Sarwar - standing in the council elections for
@ScottishLabour
Henry Dunbar, former Grand Master of the Grand Orange Lodge of Scotland

To be fair Tommy, they do look like the sort of lads who enjoy a good dinner and a pint.

Bit like Brendan Behan in Borstal Boy..

I was brought to the CID headquarters in Lime Street. In accordance with
instructions, I refused to answer questions. I agreed to make a statement, with a
view to propaganda for the cause. It would look well at home, too. I often read
speeches from the dock, and thought the better of the brave and defiant men that
made them so far from friends or dear ones.

'My name is Brendan Behan. I came over here to fight for the Irish Workers'
and Small Farmers' Republic, for a full and free life, for my countrymen, North
and South, and for the removal of the baneful influence of British Imperialism
from Irish affairs. God save Ireland.'

'Here, what's this about small farmers? It's your statement, Paddy, and you
can put what you bloody well like in it, but I never seen a small farmer, Irish or
English; they're all bloody big fellows with bulls' 'eads on 'em, from eating
bloody great feeds and drinking cider.'

[srb7677]

What are you talkin about now?

Again yet more diversions.  I said the hypocrisy of labour bleating about russian money , and you wander off into yet another lecture on blairite labour and the wider british left as two seperate mythical  entities.

The fact remains that most of Labour isn't really left anymore, and most who are wouldn't touch the current Labour party with a bargepole.

Reality.

[Thomas]

Keir starmers british imperial labour party , and their right wing orange order candidates .....

'I want to make Scottish Labour fit for the 21st Century' said Anas Sarwar - standing in the council elections for
@ScottishLabour
Henry Dunbar, former Grand Master of the Grand Orange Lodge of Scotland

[Thomas]

It depends what you mean by the British left. Most of those running Labour are not left at all. And most left wingers are not in the Labour party at all, certainly not now. So the left and Labour really need to be spoken of as seperate entities. Because most of the former now actually opposes the latter.

I know Labour is run by a bunch of hypocrites, happy to attack others for things they do themselves. The leadership is in  the pay of Israel for a start. And New Labour has always been in thrall to the super rich and happy to take their money in return for services rendered. Dirty Russian money has been a problem in the UK for many decades and goes right back to the time of Major, pretty much ever since the collapse of the USSR. Both the Tories and New Labour have been tainted by it. Peter Mandelsson was known to attend some of their parties on their luxurious yachts whilst being intensely relaxed about people being filthy rich.

What are you talkin about now?

Again yet more diversions.  I said the hypocrisy of labour bleating about russian money , and you wander off into yet another lecture on blairite labour and the wider british left as two seperate mythical  entities.

[Thomas]

I'll draw a line under all the hostile stuff which seemed to begin in response to a humorous throwaway comment in chat from me about storm Eunice, your response to which - without any request from me - someone or other took it upon themselves to delete. The attempt to deliberately rile me was duly noted by myself, however.

Anyway, happy to move on and forget about it if you are.

As ever you are letting your paranoia get the better of you Steve. It was a wind up , I shouldn't have done it , I apologised to the mods for doing it , they then deleted it , end of story. I apologise to you also.

Using words like "hostile " and portraying it as some deliberate psychological attack is laughable though Steve

Two things I would like to say. Firstly, I dispute that Corbyn, and the entire left is antisemitic.

Let me clarify. I'm not claiming Corbyn, and the entire left is antisemitic. I'm saying during Corbyn's time as leader of the labour party, who largely represent the "British left", there clearly was a higher-than-normal amount of antisemitic incidents both within the labour party, and associated with the British left in general.

I accept Jeremy Corbyn himself wasn't as far as I could see linked to any antisemitic incidents, I also accept some of it was tory and right wing propaganda, but there was enough evidence , much of what we supplied to you on this very forum , to show there were indeed many anti semites with labour and the wider British left for it to be casually ignored. The fact you still today try and deflect deny or twist that argument shows again how unreasonable you can be at times when it comes to defending issues you feel strongly about, just like everyone else.

What we are is anti-oppressor and in Palestine Israel is that oppressor.

Sure, and most reasonable minded people are the same. Again though, the lefts hypocrisy on which oppressed they choose to side with often gets flagged up , and more importantly many of the antisemitic incidents we saw weren't just criticism of the government of Israel's policies regarding Palestine . Clearly many were hostility, prejudice and discrimination against Jewish people, the very definition of antisemitism. Again, the very fact you appear to try and couch the many flagged incidents in Corbyn's time as mere support for oppressed Palestine is to my mind highly unreasonable.

What the party under Starmer has done is to equate legitimate criticism of Israel and support for an oppressed and occupied people as antisemitism. Makes it so much easier to expel the left that way. It is worth bearing in mind that Starmer's wife and most of his in-laws are themselves Israeli citizens, and he includes at least one "former" Israeli security operative amongst his personal entourage. Israel itself of course is a democracy, albeit not for non-Jews living in the occupied territories - but one with a very poor form of PR which grants excessive power to small extremist parties which end up acting as the tail wagging the government dog. Via this system Israel has in recent decades been lumbered with far-right governments of a sort we would tend not to support anywhere else. And there exists - if it has not already been removed - video evidence of an Israeli security operative giving a large sum of money to a centrist Labour MP to advance the cause of Israel.

I think most of us are aware of all this Steve. However, it doesn't wash with me. Nor I suspect many others. The idea this is all tory party propaganda, mudslinging by Blairites like starmer of nothing more than legitimate criticism of  Israel is again unreasonable and fanciful from you.

Do we really need to start once again spamming the forum with the many well documented and clear anti-semitic articles to show the nonsense you are trying to punt here?

In the light of all this yes I agree Starmer is a hypocrite.

    He might be over what you are talking about, but that wasn't my point as you know. To talk about taking a stand for democracy, when he couldn't stand for democracy in his own country 2016-2019 is clearly the point I'm making about his hypocrisy.

Most of those running the Labour party at Westminster are. Rarely are they motivated by high principle but purely by the naked pursuit of power for its own sake and they will say and do anything they think will help them bar actual policies that the economic establishment might not like. Starmer's autocracy and total lack of respect for internal party democracy is well known to former Labour members like me, so yes, I am well aware of what a hypocrite he is on the issue of democracy - a supporter of it only when it suits him.

So, what are you saying? That you now agree with me on starmers hypocrisy, and you are widening it to include many other issuing further strengthening my original point about his anti-democratic stance on Brexit?

Yet I stand by my basic point that to compare him to a psychopathic despot who has invaded a democratic state is a bit of a stretch and lacks credibility for that reason.

Steve, yet again, we have another example of you being unreasonable. I haven't compared starmer to Putin (the "psychopathic despot") , you did that.
Now that you yourself are comparing starmer to Putin, I would argue aye, you could actually say he is worse than Putin. Putin you tell us, is a psychopathic despot, and the narrative of the western media is he is the evil villain in some sort of James bond storyline intent on conquering the world and smothering us all in communism.
Starmer is supposed to be a party leader in the free and fair west where all is good and democratic. So starmer should know better don't you agree than Putin and should have accepted democracy in 2016 , but didn't.

We do not need to undermine ourselves by stretching credibility too far to do it.

You are the one doing that not me. You have taken a reasonable point of mine, twisted it into a straw man , and then set about attacking that very straw man argument you yourself have created.

One last thing. There is never any political party that does not do at least the occasional good thing, even if for the wrong reasons. The ability to give credit where credit is due sometimes is a sign that reasonableness, honesty, and fairness trumps malice. The inability ever to do so with any particular bugbear is a sign of the opposite.

If Labour ever did something I agreed with I would say so. I doubt whether you'd temperamentally find that possible and would just find more reasons to attack it, because your hate appears to be stronger than your reason where Labour is concerned

Steve being unreasonable yet again.
The idea I'm some inconsolable psychopath with an inherent and unreasonable hatred of labour is yet again more of your invention to sully my place on this forum.
I do hate labour, I have given many many reasons why that is over the years, as have others, but I point out to you I was once a labour party member , activist , and voter in years gone by just as you were.
So, your invention that I couldn't find it possible to reasonably agree with labour when merited doesn't wash. I have done and will continue to do so when the occasion merits it.
As many of us on here have told you, (and who you similarly mocked and attempted to besmirch) I didn't leave labour, labour left me. The British left, and many within the wider movement have become almost unrecognisable to many of us.

None of this take anything away from my clear point which so far you have been unable to destroy  , that starmers claim to stand up for democracy anywhere I the world when he couldn't do it in his own nation makes him a massive hypocrite , and one for whom his anti-democratic Brexit baggage will follow him around for his entire political career in my opinion.




























 

[srb7677]

Its the rank hypocrisy yet again of labour bleating about russian money in the tories when the party has  been linked to businessmen with russian links who donated around a million quid to the party.

Like i said , the hypocrisy is nauseating.

It really is the achillies heel of the left and their political leadership , blaming others while doing the very same thing and getting caught out time and again.

It depends what you mean by the British left. Most of those running Labour are not left at all. And most left wingers are not in the Labour party at all, certainly not now. So the left and Labour really need to be spoken of as seperate entities. Because most of the former now actually opposes the latter.

I know Labour is run by a bunch of hypocrites, happy to attack others for things they do themselves. The leadership is in  the pay of Israel for a start. And New Labour has always been in thrall to the super rich and happy to take their money in return for services rendered. Dirty Russian money has been a problem in the UK for many decades and goes right back to the time of Major, pretty much ever since the collapse of the USSR. Both the Tories and New Labour have been tainted by it. Peter Mandelsson was known to attend some of their parties on their luxurious yachts whilst being intensely relaxed about people being filthy rich. 

[srb7677]

I would have thought a "reasonable" debater like you would have accepted the point of starmers anti democracy hypocrisy after his history of attempting to overturn brexit , while now virtue signalling about ukraine democracy for a cheap publicity stunt.

I'll draw a line under all the hostile stuff which seemed to begin in response to a humorous throwaway comment in chat from me about storm Eunice, your response to which - without any request from me - someone or other took it upon themselves to delete. The attempt to deliberately rile me was duly noted by myself, however.

Anyway, happy to move on and forget about it if you are.

Two things I would like to say. Firstly I dispute that Corbyn and the entire left is anti-semitic. What we are is anti-oppressor and in Palestine Israel is that oppressor. What the party under Starmer has done is to equate legitimate criticism of Israel and support for an oppressed and occupied people as anti-semitism. Makes it so much easier to expel the left that way. It is worth bearing in mind that Starmer's wife and most of his in-laws are themselves Israeli citizens, and he includes at least one "former" Israeli security operative amongst his personal entourage. Israel itself of course is a demoracy, albeit not for non-Jews living in the occupied territories - but one with a very poor form of PR which grants excessive power to small extremist parties which end up acting as the tail wagging the government dog. Via this system Israel has in recent decades been lumbered with far right governments of a sort we would tend not to support anywhere else. And there exists - if it has not already been removed - video evidence of an Israeli security operative giving a large sum of money to a centrist Labour MP to advance the cause of Israel.

In the light of all this yes I agree Starmer is a hypocrite. Most of those running the Labour party at Westminster are. Rarely are they motivated by high principle but purely by the naked pursuit of power for it's own sake and they will say and do anything they think will help them bar actual policies that the economic establishment might not like. Starmer's autocracy and total lack of respect for internal party democracy is well known to former Labour members like me, so yes I am well aware of what a hypocrite he is on the issue of democracy - a supporter of it only when it suits him.

Yet I stand by my basic point that to compare him to a psychopathic despot who has invaded a democratic state is a bit of a stretch and lacks credibility for that reason. We can both fill pages with legitimate criticism of Starmer. We do not need to undermine ourselves by stretching credibility too far to do it.

One last thing. There is never any political party that does not do at least the occasional good thing, even if for the wrong reasons. The ability to give credit where credit is due sometimes is a sign that reasonableness, honesty, and fairness trumps malice. The inability ever to do so with any particular bugbear is a sign of the opposite.

If Labour ever did something I agreed with I would say so. I doubt whether you'd temperamentally find that possible and would just find more reasons to attack it, because your hate appears to be stronger than your reason where Labour is concerned. And I say all this as someone who loathes Starmer and what Labour has become and will almost certainly never vote Labour again.

[Thomas]

To be fair, that surprises me not one jot about either of them.

If integrity and principle were dynamite, that pair wouldn't have enough between them to blow a bee's knees off.

Sure but the point is its not just starmer and his advisor mandelson is it?

Its the rank hypocrisy yet again of labour bleating about russian money in the tories when the party has  been linked to businessmen with russian links who donated around a million quid to the party.

Like i said , the hypocrisy is nauseating.

It really is the achillies heel of the left and their political leadership , blaming others while doing the very same thing and getting caught out time and again.

Putin and the various political elite around the world are like babies when it comes to labour party corruption , as glaswegians , scousers and the people of croydon could tell you.

[Thomas]

There was a lot to read. And at that point I had literally just ten minutes before I had to leave for work, which was not even enough time to read all your verbiage, let alone respond to it. Some of us do actually work on a sunday you know. Plus I have a friend who is Latvian, has family back home in Latvia, and still worse has others in Ukraine. Half of these latter decided to head for Poland and have just got there safely. The other half decided to stay put and nothing more has been heard from them as yet. My friend is worried sick and is a far bigger focus of my attention right now. So after 8 exhausting hours in work and two more trying to comfort my friend, I don't have the mental energy for this little shitshow of yours right now. I just need to relax.

If I hang around here for long at all right now it will be for non-hostile debate only. I haven't the time or energy for your hostility right now.

Steve thats your get out clause in all the years i have been on these forums......late for work.......exhausted after a long shift............personal problems in your private life.......

While i sympathise with your friend , you still took the time to initially attack my post mocking starmers hypocritical empty gesturing and virtue signalling on democracy , then  further numerous attacks  , then ran away.

My point regarding starmer and the wider british lefts hypocrisy over democracy fully stands , and you know it.

Aye steve , i debate hard , i attack labour and the brit left regularly , and make no apologies for it. You also tried to insinuate i was unreasonable. Aye i can be unreasonable , no more than you , and also can be reasonable no less than you.

For the old time forum members like me who has seen your mask of reason slip , back in the day when you were a fully paid up member of the corbyn cult , i well remember the unreasonable side of you too pal.

Calling the majority in the uk racist without any reasonable evidence except skewed data , you , defender of all that is great and good and warrior against prejudice turning a blind eye to the vast amounts of evidence put to you of anti semtism under the corbyn cult in the labour party , and much more , attempting to label me as "unreasonable " is laughable.

So it works both ways pal.

Now we have the character assassinations over and done with , perhaps you would like to expand on my well made point of keir starmers hypocrisy , which  extends to both labour and the wider british left.

Nothing more than the usual cheap headline and bandwagon jumping from the left and their leadership , such as it is , that we have come to expect.

I would have thought a "reasonable" debater like you would have accepted the point of starmers anti democracy hypocrisy after his history of attempting to overturn brexit , while now virtue signalling about ukraine democracy for a cheap publicity stunt.

I fully sympathise with whats happening to the people of ukraine ,but the stench of hypocrisy and corruption is nauseating coming from the political elite in both scotland and england , and across much of europe and north america.

[srb7677]

Mandelson's Putin links make mockery of Starmer's self-righteousness on Russia

To be fair, that surprises me not one jot about either of them.

If integrity and principle were dynamite, that pair wouldn't have enough between them to blow a bee's knees off.

[srb7677]

As i said onthe ukraine thread , you can find the time to make three off topic posts attacking me , but can't answer my pertinent points regarding starmer

There was a lot to read. And at that point I had literally just ten minutes before I had to leave for work, which was not even enough time to read all your verbiage, let alone respond to it. Some of us do actually work on a sunday you know. Plus I have a friend who is Latvian, has family back home in Latvia, and still worse has others in Ukraine. Half of these latter decided to head for Poland and have just got there safely. The other half decided to stay put and nothing more has been heard from them as yet. My friend is worried sick and is a far bigger focus of my attention right now. So after 8 exhausting hours in work and two more trying to comfort my friend, I don't have the mental energy for this little shitshow of yours right now. I just need to relax. 

If I hang around here for long at all right now it will be for non-hostile debate only. I haven't the time or energy for your hostility right now.

[Thomas]

I lack the time this morning to read the entire thread.

But on the general  point re Starmer, I know he is a hypocrite. I know he is a liar. I know he cannot be trusted.

I do just happen to believe though that comparing anything he has said or done - or what any other British politician of any party within living memory has said or done - with the actions of Putin in Ukraine is a bit silly and excessive.

As i said onthe ukraine thread , you can find the time to make three off topic posts attacking me , but cant answer my pertinent points regarding starmer , the labour party and wider british lefts hypocrisy on not just democracy , but links to dirty russian and chinese money.

It is quite amusing watchig the political elite all over europe at the minute running around furiously trying to cover thier tracks and links to dirty russian money , while attacking political opponents for doing the same.

None of them give a fack about ukraine or its people.

We have sturgeon in scotland attacking salmond over his programme that is aired on RT , while running away from the many questions that is being asked about her behaviour on many issues over recent years. We have the situation in France where macron has went silent all of a sudden over his humiliation by putin , while at the same time his sycophants are out attacking marine le pen and her links with dirty russian money. Same is happening in your country with labour and tory  , and over in yank land , we have widespread condemnation of biden and the democrats by republicans over the massive pr disasters of first the afghan withdrawal debacle , and now ukraine. Of course rememebring it was the hero of the left , obama ,and his sidekick biden , who backed the ukrainian coup in 2014 against victor yanukovich , and once again , set about using others in their proxy war with the russians.

But on the general  point re Starmer, I know he is a hypocrite. I know he is a liar. I know he cannot be trusted.

I do just happen to believe though that comparing anything he has said or done - or what any other British politician of any party within living memory has said or done - with the actions of Putin in Ukraine is a bit silly and excessive.

Of course you think im being silly. Typical attempt to shut down debate because you know the uncomfortable truth of the british left , not just starmers  , anti democratic stance on brexit is something that will haunt you for years to come , possibly and hopefully damaging your chances of future electability.

What happened in 2016 - 2019 has entered folklore for the plebs of the uk , just as labours siding with the tories hand in glove in 2011-2014 in scotland has crushed the british left in scotland.

We wont let you forget dont worry.

[srb7677]

I lack the time this morning to read the entire thread.

But on the general  point re Starmer, I know he is a hypocrite. I know he is a liar. I know he cannot be trusted.

I do just happen to believe though that comparing anything he has said or done - or what any other British politician of any party within living memory has said or done - with the actions of Putin in Ukraine is a bit silly and excessive.