Can Russia be stopped?

[cromwell]

As for ukraine wanting in the EU , are you suggesting membership is a good thing...........?

No I'm suggesting like Scotland they should be able to make their own decision either way.

One of the significant reasons to leave the EU was centralised military unification, i.e. the EU army, under executive orders from Brussels.  And yet, some of the same people think EU and NATO expansion are so great.  (Oh, yeah, but Russia bad, therefore NATO good, 🤣)

As you can see from my reply to Thomas I was saying nothing of the sort,unless of course you believe they should do as they're told.

[Scott777]

As for ukraine wanting in the EU , are you suggesting membership is a good thing...........?

One of the significant reasons to leave the EU was centralised military unification, i.e. the EU army, under executive orders from Brussels.  And yet, some of the same people think EU and NATO expansion are so great.  (Oh, yeah, but Russia bad, therefore NATO good, 🤣)

[Thomas]

I don't dispute that and wish there'd been more talk here instead of war.

From the Ukranians point of view they too feel threatened and unsurprisingly want in the eu and Nato.

What we maybe don't take in to account is we're one of the few nations not successfully invaded and occupied in modern times,I well understand the Poles and Finland having the stance they do.

We?



The uk as you know isnt a nation cromwell , its a multi national state , and i dont know how far back you mean in terms of "modern" , but scotland was invaded and occupied by the british army just 250 years back.

From the Ukranians point of view they too feel threatened and unsurprisingly want in the eu and Nato.

Im sure they do. Will they be allowed to though?

Anyway , i cant see anyone changing their mind on this thread regarding what is happening over to the east. All i will say though is surely most of us recognise events are a bit more complex than the puerile Good v bad , evil v light , dictator v democracy etc etc that is sometimes being talked about.

NATO seems to be less and less about a group of nations coming together for defence , and more and more an instrument for american foreign policy where they have set themselves at the top of a feudal pyramid to call the shots.

As for ukraine wanting in the EU , are you suggesting membership is a good thing...........?

[Scott777]

Are you now saying an independent sovereign state cannot choose what it does or doesn't join? IE NATO?

Nope.  But you, like others, are looking at it in black and white.  There was a coup in Ukraine.  That was not a legitimate decision by the Ukrainian government, and so not the choice of an independent sovereign state.  NATO is the consequence of that, and Russia invaded as a consequence of that.

[srb7677]

Nick, when the buttons are pressed, it won't make a difference whose side you chose.  You will be a corpse.

That depends where he is at the time. If he is anywhere near the epicentre he won't even be a corpse because he would have been vapourised in a nanosecond. But then, I'd rather have that happen to me than be far enough away to die a slow death.

[Sampanviking]

Today, the armed forces of the DPR retook the town of Volnovakha after they were driven out by the Ukrainian army in 2014
Since that time, it has sat pretty much on the contact line and has served as a local military command and administration center for the Ukrainian army
This video is from a CGTN team that were about the first reporters to enter after it was recaptured.

https://news.cgtn.com/news/2022-03-12/CGTN-correspondent-Dmitriy-Maslak-s-war-diary-in-Volnovakha-18ls2YRdEac/index.html

[Sheepy]

That's not the point. It's the Ukrainians who are getting murdered. No-one is attacking Russia. It's all one way.

Over 2.5 million ain't although the other human cost of saving them wouldn't cross your mind. 

[cromwell]

"Russia's invasion of Ukraine is not an act of madness or irrational from their point of view. They feel threatened and have acted in retaliation. Listen to Ray McGovern the former CIA Head of Russia desk, Jack Matlock, the last US Ambassador to the Soviet Union and Professor John Mearsheimer, US war veteran and political scientist, discuss the invasion and the apportioning of blame. They lay the blame at the door of Washington "


https://consortiumnews.com/2022/03/06/watch-mearsheimer-and-mcgovern-on-ukraine/

I don't dispute that and wish there'd been more talk here instead of war.

From the Ukranians point of view they too feel threatened and unsurprisingly want in the eu and Nato.

What we maybe don't take in to account is we're one of the few nations not successfully invaded and occupied in modern times,I well understand the Poles and Finland having the stance they do.

[Thomas]

"Russia's invasion of Ukraine is not an act of madness or irrational from their point of view. They feel threatened and have acted in retaliation. Listen to Ray McGovern the former CIA Head of Russia desk, Jack Matlock, the last US Ambassador to the Soviet Union and Professor John Mearsheimer, US war veteran and political scientist, discuss the invasion and the apportioning of blame. They lay the blame at the door of Washington "


https://consortiumnews.com/2022/03/06/watch-mearsheimer-and-mcgovern-on-ukraine/

[Nick]

That's the simple version.  The more nuanced version is:

The conflict began long before 2022.

Ukraine has a bio-lab 'of concern', probably funded by the US.  (Just like how they funded the Wuhan lab, which accidentally on purpose made gain of function viruses, which accidentally on purpose escaped.  Remember that virus that you thought was very very very bad?).

NATO expanded from East Germany, through to Eastern Europe, and was going to absorb Ukraine.

Therefore, Russia felt under threat, and it clearly isn't all 'one way'.

All in the mind of a despot.

[Thomas]

This seems a really warped view and really not worth engaging with any further.

I understand what you are saying toots , but all scott is talking about is you wont understand this conflict without looking at the wider context.

That's not the point. It's the Ukrainians who are getting murdered. No-one is attacking Russia. It's all one way.

Well you say ukrainians are getting murdered , but as i understand it , for the past 8 years or so its the ukrainian government who has been doing the "murdering" of their own citizens , an estimated 14 000 deaths have occurred during this conflict .

While the ukrainian people , as victims of war , deserve our support and human compassion as well as solidarity , im not sure thier government does.

[Nick]

Are you referring to allowing the expansion of NATO?  Yes, Putin is very naughty for allowing that.  I guess.  Or I have no idea what you are talking about.

Are you now saying an independent sovereign state cannot choose what it does or doesn't join? IE NATO?
I don't get to choose what colour wallpaper my neighbour hangs. 

The fact is Putin has been in power for decades and doesn't have a legacy and he wants one.

[Nick]

If by "commies" you mean anyone vaguely left wing, I for one do not approve of what Putin is doing. But we in the west have let him get away with too much for too long.

I oppose all illegal invasions of sovereign states. I opposed the Iraq War. I opposed the frequent Israeli incursions into Palestine. And I oppose Putin's invasion of Ukraine.

But the political leaderships of all Westminster parties would have more credibilty if they were not so selective about what they condemned and what they chose to support.

Can't argue with that Steve. 

[T00ts]

That's the simple version.  The more nuanced version is:

The conflict began long before 2022.

Ukraine has a bio-lab 'of concern', probably funded by the US.  (Just like how they funded the Wuhan lab, which accidentally on purpose made gain of function viruses, which accidentally on purpose escaped.  Remember that virus that you thought was very very very bad?).

NATO expanded from East Germany, through to Eastern Europe, and was going to absorb Ukraine.

Therefore, Russia felt under threat, and it clearly isn't all 'one way'.

This seems a really warped view and really not worth engaging with any further.

[Scott777]

That's not the point. It's the Ukrainians who are getting murdered. No-one is attacking Russia. It's all one way.

That's the simple version.  The more nuanced version is:

The conflict began long before 2022.

Ukraine has a bio-lab 'of concern', probably funded by the US.  (Just like how they funded the Wuhan lab, which accidentally on purpose made gain of function viruses, which accidentally on purpose escaped.  Remember that virus that you thought was very very very bad?).

NATO expanded from East Germany, through to Eastern Europe, and was going to absorb Ukraine.

Therefore, Russia felt under threat, and it clearly isn't all 'one way'.