Lib Dems set out roadmap to re join the EU

[Streetwalker]

It isn't one or the other SW. It is both. I don't see Eastern Europe giving up NATO. But that doesn't mean an EU army does have a purpose. When Macron called NATO brain dead, it was because NATO has a fundamental flaw. It is top heavy. Europe relies on America for it security and as such we are bound to their geopolitical narrative. In order to stop that you need to build up your own defence. NATO is a defence pact foremost. It should not be used as a means of aggression. The problem is should America elect Trump II, you are then crossing your fingers they don't do something stupid like go into Iran and kill their military commander. We were lucky the Americans didn't react when they returned fire and struck their airbases. But in any case, if the EU want to be the best that it can be, it needs it own defence whatever you might think. It doesn't have to compete with NATO, it just needs to compliment it.

I believe the last few Presidents ,Trump was probably the most vocal about said that Europe needed to up its game and contribute more to the NATO budget . Maybe it wouldn't be so top heavy as you put it if they got more involved . The whole purpose and strength of NATO is its unity ,all for one and all that . Having Von Der Leyen poking her nose in wanting run the blue flag up the pole and tell the world the EU has been keeping the peace in Europe is something we dont nor never have needed .

The EU should keep to things like banning Scotlands seed potatoes and digging wells in Romania and leave the big boys stuff to those who know what they are doing ,that being NATO .
Trump was  a safe pair of hands  ,I dont recall him bombing anyone  which is pretty rare for recent Presidents 

[B0ycey]

If an EU army means the end of NATO in Europe Ive already decided .  We stay with the North Americans and mine the English Channel  and leave them to their fate .

It isn't one or the other SW. It is both. I don't see Eastern Europe giving up NATO. But that doesn't mean an EU army does have a purpose. When Macron called NATO brain dead, it was because NATO has a fundamental flaw. It is top heavy. Europe relies on America for it security and as such we are bound to their geopolitical narrative. In order to stop that you need to build up your own defence. NATO is a defence pact foremost. It should not be used as a means of aggression. The problem is should America elect Trump II, you are then crossing your fingers they don't do something stupid like go into Iran and kill their military commander. We were lucky the Americans didn't react when they returned fire and struck their airbases. But in any case, if the EU want to be the best that it can be, it needs it own defence whatever you might think. It doesn't have to compete with NATO, it just needs to compliment it. 

[Streetwalker]

At no point has Poland requested to leave the EU. And yes they will want this army because in essence its creation is to protect them. As I said to John, what is it you fear here? If you are right it will fail and if you are wrong Europe becomes more secure. I would say it is you guys who have your Brexit glasses on actually. We are out and you are STILL scared the EU will make a success of itself. The EU isn't some backward organisation. It is more than capable in sorting out its own defence. This will gain momentum and you are going to have to accept that.

As for NATO, sure it does the job an EU army would be set up to do. The problem is NATO is too top heavy. It relies heavily on America. When America pulled out of Afghanistan, everyone else had to as well despite whether it was to do so at the time (my opinion was it was but some nations wanted to say for some reason). Which means there is no autonomy to it. It isn't a joke to say that Europe are being pulled into geopolitics that don't serve our interests for the sakes of Americas hegemony. Which means in order to break that the continent needs to stop relying on America for defence. The framework is already here. We have the troops we have the hardware. But is its fragmented and there is no coordination to it. I don't know whether such an Army would interest the UK to join up. But I would say they would if they could simply because I have never known a nation such as ours that hates being left out of anything. If we can sign up, we do sign up. This story is only just beginning, so I don't want to keep on repeating the same things over and over. There is no point discussing who what where or how it will operate and who gives the orders. All those question will be answered in time. The only thing you and John need to know now is this army will happen sooner or later. And you need to decide whether the UK should be part of it or not. Not whether the army will exist.

If an EU army means the end of NATO in Europe Ive already decided .  We stay with the North Americans and mine the English Channel  and leave them to their fate . 

[Sheepy]

and we in the UK will be lucky to be offered partnership.

LOL and think ourselves lucky and be forever grateful, except they are full of cobblers and will get told to do one yet again.

[B0ycey]

You clearly can't see without your remainer glasses on. The U.K. doesn't want to be part of the EU or it's army, that's why we left. There is already a body that does what you described, it's called NATO, and Putin is very scared of it hence this war.

And you really think Poland, the naughty child of the EU, that's been put down by the EU several times is suddenly going to become the backbone of the EU army? They're going to tell them to go away in small jerky movements.

At no point has Poland requested to leave the EU. And yes they will want this army because in essence its creation is to protect them. As I said to John, what is it you fear here? If you are right it will fail and if you are wrong Europe becomes more secure. I would say it is you guys who have your Brexit glasses on actually. We are out and you are STILL scared the EU will make a success of itself. The EU isn't some backward organisation. It is more than capable in sorting out its own defence. This will gain momentum and you are going to have to accept that. 

As for NATO, sure it does the job an EU army would be set up to do. The problem is NATO is too top heavy. It relies heavily on America. When America pulled out of Afghanistan, everyone else had to as well despite whether it was to do so at the time (my opinion was it was but some nations wanted to say for some reason). Which means there is no autonomy to it. It isn't a joke to say that Europe are being pulled into geopolitics that don't serve our interests for the sakes of Americas hegemony. Which means in order to break that the continent needs to stop relying on America for defence. The framework is already here. We have the troops we have the hardware. But is its fragmented and there is no coordination to it. I don't know whether such an Army would interest the UK to join up. But I would say they would if they could simply because I have never known a nation such as ours that hates being left out of anything. If we can sign up, we do sign up. This story is only just beginning, so I don't want to keep on repeating the same things over and over. There is no point discussing who what where or how it will operate and who gives the orders. All those question will be answered in time. The only thing you and John need to know now is this army will happen sooner or later. And you need to decide whether the UK should be part of it or not. Not whether the army will exist. 

[Nick]

I definitely meant the 21th century John. But there were definitely a few pointless ones in the 20th so I am not going to split hairs. As for the rest of you post, if you truly believe what you have written, then the army will fold as quickly as it was created. If you believe that then I don't see why you are worried. But in any case, the direction or failure of such a defence alliance will be tested and we in the UK will be lucky to be offered partnership. But in any case the building blocks are already there for existence and what becomes of it and how it will operate will become clear in time.

You clearly can't see without your remainer glasses on. The U.K. doesn't want to be part of the EU or it's army, that's why we left. There is already a body that does what you described, it's called NATO, and Putin is very scared of it hence this war. 

And you really think Poland, the naughty child of the EU, that's been put down by the EU several times is suddenly going to become the backbone of the EU army? They're going to tell them to go away in small jerky movements. 

[cromwell]

I don't think the EU need to worry they are capable of talking opponents to death.

[B0ycey]

I take it you meant 20th not 21st.

And actually no, the problem goes back LONG before that. I have said on this site and two of its predecessors that when Bush sent "Coe Lynn" Powell (honestly, how the f**k can a man mispronounce Colin and expect to be taken seriously in any way) to tell us "if we were not with him as part of the solution we were part of the problem" we should have said "fine, f**k you and here is a gift of five thousand body bags you're going to need them 'cos we fought these f**kers when we were a superpower and you were a bunch of pissed off colonials who could not sort out a way to elect a president, we got our ass whipped and learned our lesson, the Russians took the scum on and git their ass whipped too and you and your pals are just gonna let yours whipped you don't understand it yet"

You misunderstand something utterly fundamental.

The problem with the EU is the council of ministers had to create and appoint ass holes to sit on FIVE f**king presidents chairs as they can't even get enough unity of purpose to decide who the one big cheese is.

Whatever military forces the EU have will face a wall of conflicting political will. Any time soon Putin is gonna hit a Polish airbase or similar and it will be a NATO country's special forces who put the rabid Tw** down the EU will still be arguing on what colour to paint the tanks

I definitely meant the 21th century John. But there were definitely a few pointless ones in the 20th so I am not going to split hairs. As for the rest of you post, if you truly believe what you have written, then the army will fold as quickly as it was created. If you believe that then I don't see why you are worried. But in any case, the direction or failure of such a defence alliance will be tested and we in the UK will be lucky to be offered partnership. But in any case the building blocks are already there for existence and what becomes of it and how it will operate will become clear in time.

[johnofgwent]

The problem with your assessment is you are thinking of the 21st century wars. Afghanistan was an embarrassment and the idea that an EU army will be doing the same mistake as the Americans is very naive indeed.

But in terms of your question in who give the orders, it will the same way as everything else. A military heirarcy will be in place and every single member of the cooperative will have to agree to the use. If it is in self defence, that isn't going to be a problem. If it is on so called "peace keeping missions" you may have rebellion. But in a way that might just prevent us doing stupid shit like bombing for oil. Need I remind you that the West should be grateful for Westminster for preventing us going into Syria. Cameron wanted to, Osborne said it was parliaments greatest mistake. It turns out it was a watershed moment. But nonetheless this story does highlight to you that without total agreement the UK can't just go into conflict and the same would be true for the EU army. Which then leads me to ask you a question and those who cannot see the merit of a EU army collective. What is it you fear from this? Why are you questioning its possible success. Is it you hope the EU is a failure because you voted for Brexit? The truth is this is going to happen. The question of who gives the orders will in time sort itself out. You need not worry about simple questions like that when the formation of the army hasn't even been worked out.

I take it you meant 20th not 21st.

And actually no, the problem goes back LONG before that. I have said on this site and two of its predecessors that when Bush sent "Coe Lynn" Powell (honestly, how the F@@@ can a man mispronounce Colin and expect to be taken seriously in any way) to tell us "if we were not with him as part of the solution we were part of the problem" we should have said "fine, F@@@ you and here is a gift of five thousand body bags you're going to need them 'cos we fought these fuckers when we were a superpower and you were a bunch of pissed off colonials who could not sort out a way to elect a president, we got our ass whipped and learned our lesson, the Russians took the scum on and git their ass whipped too and you and your pals are just gonna let yours whipped you don't understand it yet"

You misunderstand something utterly fundamental.

The problem with the EU is the council of ministers had to create and appoint ass holes to sit on FIVE fucking presidents chairs as they can't even get enough unity of purpose to decide who the one big cheese is.

Whatever military forces the EU have will face a wall of conflicting political will. Any time soon Putin is gonna hit a Polish airbase or similar and it will be a NATO country's special forces who put the rabid T@@@ down the EU will still be arguing on what colour to paint the tanks

[T00ts]

I don't think the EU need to worry they are capable of talking opponents to death.

[B0ycey]

Actually the whole point about having a military force is having a command structure in place fit for deployment

Yes the 26 ? Nation states could contribute to a very large military force.

But who will be allowed to give it orders

The European Parliament ? Not a chance.

The problem with your assessment is you are thinking of the 21st century wars. Afghanistan was an embarrassment and the idea that an EU army will be doing the same mistake as the Americans is very naive indeed.

But in terms of your question in who give the orders, it will the same way as everything else. A military heirarcy will be in place and every single member of the cooperative will have to agree to the use. If it is in self defence, that isn't going to be a problem. If it is on so called "peace keeping missions" you may have rebellion. But in a way that might just prevent us doing stupid shit like bombing for oil. Need I remind you that the West should be grateful for Westminster for preventing us going into Syria. Cameron wanted to, Osborne said it was parliaments greatest mistake. It turns out it was a watershed moment. But nonetheless this story does highlight to you that without total agreement the UK can't just go into conflict and the same would be true for the EU army. Which then leads me to ask you a question and those who cannot see the merit of a EU army collective. What is it you fear from this? Why are you questioning its possible success. Is it you hope the EU is a failure because you voted for Brexit? The truth is this is going to happen. The question of who gives the orders will in time sort itself out. You need not worry about simple questions like that when the formation of the army hasn't even been worked out. 

[johnofgwent]

The whole point of an army is to have defence. And everyone will be involved. Poland has a very large army if you didn't know and perhaps have enough troops on their own. Put the other 26 nations together and you have a VERY VERY large army as it happens. Nonetheless I guess the beginning would be to have a cooperative defence force that would do drills. They then will share the cost in new military hardware. That is to say it wouldn't be up to just France to buy planes and ships, but the continent on the whole. France is already a nuclear power so they have that deterrent, the UK will no doubt want to be part of this so they will have them as well. As for getting their hands dirty, have you thought that getting your hands dirty is perhaps part of the problem. An army should be for defence, nothing else. China have a large powerful army, but they never use it. Just having it makes them the force they are. My guess is the EU army would be the same thing. But if Europe wants to be autonomous they have no choice but to get this started anyway. America can't just be the solution everytime and America are a liability in terms of being the instigator in most of the wars in the 21st century anyway. It is time to see the world to how it is. A world of superpowers and spheres. We need to look after our sphere and be cooperative with everyone else's and not interfere. That is how I see things anyway.

Actually the whole point about having a military force is having a command structure in place fit for deployment

Yes the 26 ? Nation states could contribute to a very large military force.

But who will be allowed to give it orders

The European Parliament ? Not a chance.

[B0ycey]

How are the EU going address their security concerns? An army?
who's going to fight if it came to it? The French? The Italians 😂. The Germans have it written in their constitution that they will not put boots on foreign soil.
The U.K. is the only country that is willing to get their hands dirty so how does us bring out of the EU hinder us?

The whole point of an army is to have defence. And everyone will be involved. Poland has a very large army if you didn't know and perhaps have enough troops on their own. Put the other 26 nations together and you have a VERY VERY large army as it happens. Nonetheless I guess the beginning would be to have a cooperative defence force that would do drills. They then will share the cost in new military hardware. That is to say it wouldn't be up to just France to buy planes and ships, but the continent on the whole. France is already a nuclear power so they have that deterrent, the UK will no doubt want to be part of this so they will have them as well. As for getting their hands dirty, have you thought that getting your hands dirty is perhaps part of the problem. An army should be for defence, nothing else. China have a large powerful army, but they never use it. Just having it makes them the force they are. My guess is the EU army would be the same thing. But if Europe wants to be autonomous they have no choice but to get this started anyway. America can't just be the solution everytime and America are a liability in terms of being the instigator in most of the wars in the 21st century anyway. It is time to see the world to how it is. A world of superpowers and spheres. We need to look after our sphere and be cooperative with everyone else's and not interfere. That is how I see things anyway.

[Nick]

Indeed. I think now especially, leaving the EU was a massive mistake. The EU are going to address their security concerns and once they have done that, their global voice with become more prominent. I noticed that BoJo might not even get a seat in their next security conference. We certainly will have no vote on what they do in any case. But my guess is we will want to be part of it and hope for good will they let us in as a partner. But that isn't a certainty when the clown keeps on upsetting the Europeans. So I guess is any party that platforms for rejoining the EU might get some weight in their votes. The Lib Dems have always been the party of remain. And if the core principle of European security is spelt out to the electorate, it may well swing peoples vote into rejoining.

How are the EU going address their security concerns? An army?
who's going to fight if it came to it? The French? The Italians 😂. The Germans have it written in their constitution that they will not put boots on foreign soil. 
The U.K. is the only country that is willing to get their hands dirty so how does us bring out of the EU hinder us?

[Sheepy]

No. I am telling you how it is Sheepy. Remainers are the vote of the future and we are heading towards an era of time where the EU will showcase its worth. Don't look at today to understand the future. Dialectical Materialism is motion. Any EU military cooperation enhancement, the UK will want to be part of that because one thing the UK hates is being left behind. They haven't realised that we at best now are a medium player in the geopolitical game and I suspect their seat in the UN council clouds the reality. But when the EU becomes bigger, they will understand their place and then they will want to rejoin. Time Sheepy. Time. The opinion of the few Brexiteer hardliners left will be ignored in time.

Sure, they are Boycey until they come to their senses as well. It has gone from a big mistake and now it is all about time, you had 50 years of time and eventually you will be kicked out. Just like the Westminster party the writing is on the wall and we will pick our battles not those the Westminster party think they can pick for us.