Tragedy if kamala harris won presidency

[cromwell]

Russia says clear rules for gas payment in roubles ready by Thursday (msn.com)
Toots and Cromwell won't like getting their pensions in Roubles.

Mod Notice

What has this got to do with anything other than a sly dig at the mods,if you have a problem with the mods on here take it up by pm if still not happy take it up with Nick.

Till then cut out the sillyness.

[Sheepy]

Russia says clear rules for gas payment in roubles ready by Thursday (msn.com)
Toots and Cromwell won't like getting their pensions in Roubles. 

[Thomas]

Of course I do. But the term here is bullshit since the nation that invaded a soveriegn nation, thereby starting the war, is not a US proxy.

You want to blame anyone for the war except the nation that actually started it by invading another nation.

If you so desire to distort reality, then I seriously cannot be arsed.

Do you actullay understand the term proxy war steve?

We have had american special forces in ukraine training  , billions being pumped in to fund war  , involvement in removing ukrainian presidents and governance , the russioans doing the same in the east of the country.

This has been going on for at least 8 years , and is now escaltaing as we can all see. It didnt all start and suddenly drop out the sky with the russian invasion.

So that in effect is the facking definition of a proxy war.

I have been reading about and learning about american proxy wars since i took my modern studies o level in the facking 1980s. I have already made my stance on russia invading ukraine , and im not going to keep repeating myself for the hard of understanding , but im simply discussing the wider issues , that go way back.

If you cant be arsed , then fack off. No one is forcing you to debate.

[srb7677]

You live in a country that has militarily attacked the vast amount of countries across the world historically unprovoked now bleating about others doing as you have done

Thing is, I do not support my nation's invasions and never have. It does not follow that because my nation has done things I disapprove of that I cannot condemn other n ations for doing similar. Besides which, for most of the last three centuries your lot were just as complicit as the English, making the most out of access to the empire, including the opportunities of the slave trade.

But as ever you are attempting to shift the goalposts by condeming past wrongs on the apparent assumption that I must have supported them, when in fact they are entirely off topic for this thread. If you want to talk about British invasions of Iraq, Egypt, Ireland, Afghanistan, China, start a pigging thread on them instead of using them as diversion tactics to derail the debate, something you are apt to do.

[srb7677]

Im sure the english left like yourself are trying hard to make yourselves look electable and respectable to the english public by joining the throng condeming putin

Actually, most of my left wing comrades whilst being critical of Putin are also critical of Ukraine and a little bit too willing to buy into anti-Ukraine news which quite often turns out to be fake. I am out of step with them because I think for myself.

I have a certain perspective because my best friend has relatives in Ukraine and I am hearing first hand accounts. There are plenty of Russian bombs falling, Russian missiles crashing down, and Russian bullets being fired, and plenty of similar shit being fired back at the Russian invaders, some of it probably supplied by us. People are dying. There is zero evidence that the USA or ourselves wanted this war. That we wanted Russia to invade Ukraine.

To call this somehow some kind of US proxy way is just pure misinformation from you. If you cannot recognise Putin as a despot after all the evidence over many years, and that responsibility for the war lies with the leadership of the country which started it by invading another country, then you are just an apologist for the indefensible, and little better than a Putinesque propagandist.

Putin invades Ukraine and it is all Biden's fault. Tell me, when Germany invaded Poland was that Roosevelt's fault? Perhaps when Soviet tanks stormed into Hungary in 1956 it was the fault of Outer Mongolia perhaps?

[srb7677]

Do you understand the term proxy war steve?

Of course I do. But the term here is bullshit since the nation that invaded a soveriegn nation, thereby starting the war, is not a US proxy. 

You want to blame anyone for the war except the nation that actually started it by invading another nation.

If you so desire to distort reality, then I seriously cannot be arsed.

[Thomas]

Who invaded who here?

Do you understand the term proxy war steve?

What does proxy war mean?


A proxy war occurs when a major power instigates or plays a major role in supporting and directing a party to a conflict but does only a small portion of the actual fighting itself.

To boil down an 8 year conflict to" who invaded who" , where at least 14 000 people have died , the us government meddling for decades in ukraine including overthrowin the ukrainian government twice and imposing western neo liberal policies , all to aggravate the russians , who in turn supported the pro russian ukrainian elements , is typical of your blinkers and selective posturing.

I haven't the time for your excessively verbose misrepresentions and contortions.

You sound like a broken record steve. We are all extremely busy individuals often with little spare time on our hands , but we dont have to post incessantly about it.

The thing is everyone attacked Corbyn for supposedly being a Kremlin stooge. Yet he's nothing compared to you in that department

another empty diversion. Using the quote tags , quote where i called corbyn a kremlin stooge? I called out many of wurzels faults , but kremlin stooge wasnt one of them.

I can also be pro whoever i like.

Im not english.

Im not trying to curry favour with english/british nationalists.

Im not the leader of an english political party trying to win votes off the english public.

Is this you finally found your english nationalist backbone steve after all these years? hope so!.

Despite the fact that it is a nation led by a despot that is militarily attacking a sovereign state,

What like when your nation was led by that labour party despot tony blair who militarily attacked a sovereign state? ( or two)

You live in a country that has militarily attacked the vast amount of countries across the world historically unprovoked now bleating about others doing as you have done , and you wonder why no one takes your nation seriously?

Lord Haw Haw in a kilt.

now now steve , i can sit all day long trading insults you if you like,  but as we both know you cry off the forum bleating about reasoned debate when your little habits get mentioned.

Im sure the english left like yourself are trying hard to make yourselves look electable and respectable to the english public by joining the throng condeming putin , but everyone knows in both england and scotland the only lord haws haws in these islands belong to the labour party , who would sell both the scottish and english public down the road to any old foreigner for their warped political ideology.

It was only a few years back you and your party were trying to stab the english public in the back and sell them out to brussells , so jumping on the self righteous putin bandwagon wont wash that stain out anytime soon.

[srb7677]

then you contradict that statement by saying this isnt a proxy war

Who invaded who here?

I haven't the time for your excessively verbose misrepresentions and contortions.

The thing is everyone attacked Corbyn for supposedly being a Kremlin stooge. Yet he's nothing compared to you in that department.

Despite the fact that it is a nation led by a despot that is militarily attacking a sovereign state, you want to make excuses for it and somehow blame the USA for the war.

Lord Haw Haw in a kilt.

[Thomas]

I was quite simply challenging the assertion that Putin's decision to invade the Ukraine is somehow the USA's proxy war. In spite of the history leading up to it, which many of us, mot least the USA, have played an ignoble role in, the fact remains that this time it was never the USA doing the invading. It was Russia. This cannot logically be construed as a US proxy war unless the invading nation, Russia, is somehow a US proxy. Which I am certain it is not.

As for Ukraine wishing to seek closer alighment with Europe and the west in general, as a sovereign nation that is their right. Putin, by his own utterances, is motivated by a belief that Ukraine is and ought to be inherently Russian, and that it has no right to an independent existence. All the west is really doing is helping to provide the arms that allow Ukraine to defend itself.

As a nationalist yourself, how would you react if the Westminster government declared that Scotland was inherently English and had no right to exist - and then invaded you with a view to conquest? Surely you recognise Ukraine's right to national self-determination? And their right to defend that in the face of a military attempt to suppress their will? Are we not right to help them without becoming directly involved militarily ourselves? An by us I mean the west in general.

It is a total misnomer to regard this as any kind of US proxy war.

You havent challenged anything regarding this being an american proxy war. In fact , your reply above is full of contradictions to that fact.

You claim at first the usa has played an ignoble role in events , appearing to agree with what im saying , then you contradict that statement by saying this isnt a proxy war while coming up with a load of puerile nonsense such as "despite the history leading up to this ".

Im saying you can't ignore the history leading up to this , the provocation of the russians ( whom no one is claiming are blameless either) , the invlovement of the americans helping depose a pro russian president who won 49 % of the vote , which then sparked into action an 8 year civil war  , with the americans funding and arming behind the scenes the pro western ukrainians.

You calim this isnt an american proxy war? How many times have we seen this play out over the years? We saw it recently in syria , not to mention loads of other countries down the decades.

You simply appear to not know what you are talking about , and are simply trying to dismiss all events while focusing purely on the recent russian invasion .

Even ukrainian left wingers are criticising american involvement  , saying they are using the ukrainians as cannon fodder in a prxoy war by implication with russia. On top of that , it was only yesterday the ukrainian president was being quoted as saying something similar that it was dawning on him ukraine  , despite "western promises" would never be allowed to join either NATO or the EU , and that ukraine would have to deal with this on their own without any major western help.

I dont know what it is with some people in your nation steve , you seem to have lost all ability to do critical thinking , and unable or unwilling to take an informed view of whats happening by seeing events from both sides.

Ukrainian leftist criticizes Western war drive with Russia: US is using Ukraine as 'cannon fodder'

A left-wing peace activist raised in Ukraine explains how the US government created the crisis, backing two coups in a decade, fueling a devastating civil war, and exploiting his nation as a proxy against Russia.

You see, the US government has meddled in Ukraine for decades. And the Ukrainian people have suffered because of this.
The overwhelming support that Western governments and media outlets have poured out for Ukraine since Russia invaded on February 24 is not actually motivated by concern for the Ukrainian people. They are using us to advance their political and economic interests.

We know this because Washington overthrew our government twice in a decade, imposed neoliberal economic policies that made our country the poorest in Europe, and has fueled a devastating civil war that in the past eight years took the lives of 14,000 Ukrainians and wounded and displaced many more.
The following facts don't get mentioned by the media, as they contradict the foreign-policy goals of the US government. So unless you are actively engaged in the anti-war movement, the info below is probably new to you. That is why I wanted to write this article.

US government backed two coups in Ukraine in one decade, and fueled a civil war that killed 14,000 Ukrainians

https://multipolarista.com/2022/03/14/ukrainian-leftist-war-russia-us/

Read it for yourself. Dont just take my point of view .

[Borchester]

I was quite simply challenging the assertion that Putin's decision to invade the Ukraine is somehow the USA's proxy war. In spite of the history leading up to it, which many of us, mot least the USA, have played an ignoble role in, the fact remains that this time it was never the USA doing the invading. It was Russia. This cannot logically be construed as a US proxy war unless the invading nation, Russia, is somehow a US proxy. Which I am certain it is not.

As for Ukraine wishing to seek closer alighment with Europe and the west in general, as a sovereign nation that is their right. Putin, by his own utterances, is motivated by a belief that Ukraine is and ought to be inherently Russian, and that it has no right to an independent existence. All the west is really doing is helping to provide the arms that allow Ukraine to defend itself.

As a nationalist yourself, how would you react if the Westminster government declared that Scotland was inherently English and had no right to exist - and then invaded you with a view to conquest? Surely you recognise Ukraine's right to national self-determination? And their right to defend that in the face of a military attempt to suppress their will? Are we not right to help them without becoming directly involved militarily ourselves? An by us I mean the west in general.

It is a total misnomer to regard this as any kind of US proxy war.

True

[srb7677]

No steve , sorry but its your rhetoric regarding trump and denial of american involvement in ukraine which has spurred events on to what is now happening that is quite frankly laughable in the extreme.

If you think was has just all of a sudden happened , because you are told that some deluded madman wants to recreate the hammer and sickle then you are more deluded than i thought.

This current war has its roots in the obama  adminstration , and goes way back , and we are simply seeing the growth of the poisonous seeds that were sown years back.

This isnt about petty political point scoring ,if this escalates further ,we are all going to pay a heavy price .To de escalate it , we all need to understand the issues involved and whats at stake rahter than fairy stories being sold from the western media about good guy bad guy.

You claim an interest in history and politics , so fer facks sake man do a bit of reading up on events .

I was quite simply challenging the assertion that Putin's decision to invade the Ukraine is somehow the USA's proxy war. In spite of the history leading up to it, which many of us, mot least the USA, have played an ignoble role in, the fact remains that this time it was never the USA doing the invading. It was Russia. This cannot logically be construed as a US proxy war unless the invading nation, Russia, is somehow a US proxy. Which I am certain it is not.

As for Ukraine wishing to seek closer alighment with Europe and the west in general, as a sovereign nation that is their right. Putin, by his own utterances, is motivated by a belief that Ukraine is and ought to be inherently Russian, and that it has no right to an independent existence. All the west is really doing is helping to provide the arms that allow Ukraine to defend itself.

As a nationalist yourself, how would you react if the Westminster government declared that Scotland was inherently English and had no right to exist - and then invaded you with a view to conquest? Surely you recognise Ukraine's right to national self-determination? And their right to defend that in the face of a military attempt to suppress their will? Are we not right to help them without becoming directly involved militarily ourselves? An by us I mean the west in general.

It is a total misnomer to regard this as any kind of US proxy war.

[Thomas]

This is frankly laughable and you are capable of so much better. Biden didn't start a war in Ukraine. For once it wasn't the USA waging an aggressive war. It was Russian that invaded Ukraine and started the war.

No steve , sorry but its your rhetoric regarding trump and denial of american involvement in ukraine which has spurred events on to what is now happening that is quite frankly laughable in the extreme.

If you think was has just all of a sudden happened , because you are told that some deluded madman wants to recreate the hammer and sickle then you are more deluded than i thought.

This current war has its roots in the obama  adminstration , and goes way back , and we are simply seeing the growth of the poisonous seeds that were sown years back.

This isnt about petty political point scoring ,if this escalates further ,we are all going to pay a heavy price .To de escalate it , we all need to understand the issues involved and whats at stake rahter than fairy stories being sold from the western media about good guy bad guy.

You claim an interest in history and politics , so fer facks sake man do a bit of reading up on events .

[srb7677]

didnt start a proxy war with russia in ukraine

This is frankly laughable and you are capable of so much better. Biden didn't start a war in Ukraine. For once it wasn't the USA waging an aggressive war. It was Russian that invaded Ukraine and started the war.

[Sheepy]

If Joe Biden is actually running anything, you can call me as dumb as a rock. 

[Thomas]

Like I miss a dose of the trots.

i know steve , but you need to step back and take away the blinding ideological hatred of trump , who in reality is nothing to do with us , well , directly anyway , and look at the disaster of the biden administration.

Trump may not have had a diplomatic bone in his body , but he didnt withdraw disasterously from afghanistan putting thousands of lives at risk , didnt start a proxy war with russia in ukraine , and unlike the interfering democrats  in world affairs , was largely inward looking to america itself.

If i had to pick between the dregas at the bottom of the barrell , i would rather an anti diplomatic clown than a warmonger in charge of the strongest military and economic powerhouse on the planet.