What is really happening in the Ukraine Conflict?

[Sheepy]

Just to illustrate. Ukrainian SBU arresting Ethnic Russian civilians in East Ukraine
https://twitter.com/VeraVanHorne/status/1511301270820343809?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1511301270820343809%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sinodefenceforum.com%2Ft%2Fukrainian-war-developments.8899%2Fpage-1879

I don't think you are getting with the programming, you should be waving your fist at the Russkies and supporting some good old ethnic cleansing. No good asking why, because allegedly they deserve it.  

[johnofgwent]

I think most people can tell the difference between a corpse that only a day old and one that has been lying in the street for three weeks.
Funny thing is that there are a load of videos circulating from this town taken by locals from the day after the Russians left. Guess what? no bodies anywhere they went driving.
This town spent three weeks as the front line of a war zone, so god alone knows what happened during that time, in the to and fro of attack and counter attack . You think Ukrainian artillery would not kill civilians caught out in the open just as easily as Russian troops?
Were there areas it was just to dangerous to go to collect the dead?

In addition I have a real sense that the Sectarian War from hell is brewing separately, from the Nation level conflict as Ukrainians that identify as Ethnic Russians start to suffer more and more revenge attacks from Ukrainians that do not.

Let me repeat. Since 2014, three largely Russian areas formally in the Ukraine have had the opportunity to vote by referendum as to whether they wanted to stay in the Ukraine or not. They all voted overwhelmingly to leave and a nasty civil war has been bubbling along in the east ever since.
At the time the separatism was stamped out in adjacent areas, but the current punishment beatings as shown in the Brian Beletic video and the rumors of shooting suspected collaborators by the Ukrainians when they reoccupied Bucha plus Zelensky's inference that it could happen even worse in other areas, are the very sparks likely to reignite them. I am sure there been some pro militants active in Ukrainian controlled areas as attested too by all the reports of saboteurs which were being widely reported in the big cities.

I'm referring, as I presume you guessed, to the blatherings of the Russian dork who makes comical Ali's broadcast that there were no yanks in Baghdad, filmed and broadcast while in the background yanks ran around shooting people, look credible.

I really miss the days of the Iraq war. Astra had a lot of free (as in unused) channels. Sky only gave you 16 and sent their footage from the scene to London over one of the spare channels in the upper band area. 

I had a rather upmarket receiver and was working for Inmarsat at the time. I could see what the journalists had actually photographed. It wasn't pretty

[Sampanviking]

Just to illustrate. Ukrainian SBU arresting Ethnic Russian civilians in East Ukraine
https://twitter.com/VeraVanHorne/status/1511301270820343809?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1511301270820343809%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sinodefenceforum.com%2Ft%2Fukrainian-war-developments.8899%2Fpage-1879

[Sampanviking]

So are you going to try and bullshit me that the stiffs are not stiff enough, to quote one of the more useful debunks the BBC has ever done. Which is strange because usually bullshit is THEIR speciality.

For the record, and this is something dad's school chum Bernard, whose day jobs included sieving fred west's garden and proving the occupants of mass graves in Serbia were tortured before they were double tapped (or more often stabbed because they were not worth a bullet) lectured on, the effect most people have heard of, but rarely see as we don't do death properly these days called Rigor Mortis, which usually set in a few hours after death in lab rats wears off after a few days as the chemicals in the muscle fibres degrade.

Now I haven't recently killed anyone to verify this in homo sapiens and only know this from handling rattus norvegicus and the wistar variant beloved of isolated heart and lung perfusion experiments but if anyone has a spare politician handy, I still have my home office licence allowing me to perform the study ....

I think most people can tell the difference between a corpse that only a day old and one that has been lying in the street for three weeks.
Funny thing is that there are a load of videos circulating from this town taken by locals from the day after the Russians left. Guess what? no bodies anywhere they went driving.
This town spent three weeks as the front line of a war zone, so god alone knows what happened during that time, in the to and fro of attack and counter attack . You think Ukrainian artillery would not kill civilians caught out in the open just as easily as Russian troops?
Were there areas it was just to dangerous to go to collect the dead?

In addition I have a real sense that the Sectarian War from hell is brewing separately, from the Nation level conflict as Ukrainians that identify as Ethnic Russians start to suffer more and more revenge attacks from Ukrainians that do not.

Let me repeat. Since 2014, three largely Russian areas formally in the Ukraine have had the opportunity to vote by referendum as to whether they wanted to stay in the Ukraine or not. They all voted overwhelmingly to leave and a nasty civil war has been bubbling along in the east ever since.
At the time the separatism was stamped out in adjacent areas, but the current punishment beatings as shown in the Brian Beletic video and the rumors of shooting suspected collaborators by the Ukrainians when they reoccupied Bucha plus Zelensky's inference that it could happen even worse in other areas, are the very sparks likely to reignite them. I am sure there been some pro militants active in Ukrainian controlled areas as attested too by all the reports of saboteurs which were being widely reported in the big cities.

[johnofgwent]

The video was taken by the Ukrainian Paramilitary Police themselves the day before the story broke.
So you tell me, where are the bodies 24 hours earlier?
Brian Beletic's video on the subject includes a detailed look at the kind of punishment beatings being handed out to those deemed Pro Russian in cities throughout Ukraine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8moZ7S4voe4

So are you going to try and bullshit me that the stiffs are not stiff enough, to quote one of the more useful debunks the BBC has ever done. Which is strange because usually bullshit is THEIR speciality.

For the record, and this is something dad's school chum Bernard, whose day jobs included sieving fred west's garden and proving the occupants of mass graves in Serbia were tortured before they were double tapped (or more often stabbed because they were not worth a bullet) lectured on, the effect most people have heard of, but rarely see as we don't do death properly these days called Rigor Mortis, which usually set in a few hours after death in lab rats wears off after a few days as the chemicals in the muscle fibres degrade.

Now I haven't recently killed anyone to verify this in homo sapiens and only know this from handling rattus norvegicus and the wistar variant beloved of isolated heart and lung perfusion experiments but if anyone has a spare politician handy, I still have my home office licence allowing me to perform the study ....

[Sampanviking]

Sorry Toots. I'd like to answer your question, but I think the thread has now passed into emotional reactions and I'm not prepared to take any further part.

I think you are making a mistake in this DD. If "we" collectively allow the hysterics to silence any attempt of rational debate or analysis which questions their over hyped narrative, then we have done a massive disservice to the genuine cause of democracy. The rabid woke, cancel culture element to the official narrative is the most pernicious and dangerous element of the whole conflict and being waged against us in our own homes. It needs to be resisted.

[Sampanviking]

In the Donbas a major offensive is getting underway and mopping up in Mariupol is reaching its final stages

Nearly 300 Ukrainian Marines surrendered today in Mariupol
https://twitter.com/ELINTNews/status/1511059265905172485

LHR forces advance into the town of Popasnaya
https://twitter.com/Cyberspec1/status/1511089882214535170?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1511096789264338947%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es3_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sinodefenceforum.com%2Ft%2Fukrainian-war-developments.8899%2Fpage-1864

Russians moving South from Izzum reach Brazhkivka
https://twitter.com/Militarylandnet/status/1510921137487757315?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1510921137487757315%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sinodefenceforum.com%2Ft%2Fukrainian-war-developments.8899%2Fpage-1863

[Sampanviking]

No it wasn't us (as if we didn't know) Lavrov says it's definitely the Ukranians faking it......no one was killed,tortured or raped it was all staged and Ras is really a very nice chap.

The video was taken by the Ukrainian Paramilitary Police themselves the day before the story broke.
So you tell me, where are the bodies 24 hours earlier?
Brian Beletic's video on the subject includes a detailed look at the kind of punishment beatings being handed out to those deemed Pro Russian in cities throughout Ukraine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8moZ7S4voe4

[Sheepy]

Footage of Ukrainian Paramilitary police entering Bucha on Saturday 2nd April. Distinct lack of bodies on the streets.
A number of sources are talking about revenge attacks by Ukrainian forces on suspected collaborators who lived happily enough under Russian occupation for a month.
I have certainly noticed the white armbands on a number of the bodies, which are used by Russian forces to identify themselves to each other.

https://twitter.com/spriter99880/status/1510996139868405768?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1510996139868405768%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sinodefenceforum.com%2Ft%2Fukrainian-war-developments.8899%2Fpage-1855

Well, I am off to sleep, but you can bet the emotional response will be given time to grow into a frenzy. Truth will long be lost in the fog of emotional out pouring.

[cromwell]

No it wasn't us (as if we didn't know) Lavrov says it's definitely the Ukranians faking it......no one was killed,tortured or raped it was all staged and Ras is really a very nice chap.

[cromwell]

Footage of Ukrainian Paramilitary police entering Bucha on Saturday 2nd April. Distinct lack of bodies on the streets.
A number of sources are talking about revenge attacks by Ukrainian forces on suspected collaborators who lived happily enough under Russian occupation for a month.
I have certainly noticed the white armbands on a number of the bodies, which are used by Russian forces to identify themselves to each other.

https://twitter.com/spriter99880/status/1510996139868405768?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1510996139868405768%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sinodefenceforum.com%2Ft%2Fukrainian-war-developments.8899%2Fpage-1855

Well apparently we did it....probably.

https://twitter.com/francska1/status/1510993878018670595?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1510993878018670595%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=

[Sampanviking]

Why don't we meet in the middle and agree that the folk in Mariupol think that being shelled is the biggest laugh since they last had such a laugh, but they would prefer that the Russians stopped and went home?

You mean like this lady?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2CVUlojD80

[Sampanviking]

Footage of Ukrainian Paramilitary police entering Bucha on Saturday 2nd April. Distinct lack of bodies on the streets.
A number of sources are talking about revenge attacks by Ukrainian forces on suspected collaborators who lived happily enough under Russian occupation for a month.
I have certainly noticed the white armbands on a number of the bodies, which are used by Russian forces to identify themselves to each other.

https://twitter.com/spriter99880/status/1510996139868405768?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1510996139868405768%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sinodefenceforum.com%2Ft%2Fukrainian-war-developments.8899%2Fpage-1855

[B0ycey]

One dimensional on this not at all  the excuses you give, for Russia, and it's military  have been part of my thoughts but knowing their reasons and accepting what use that reasoning has been put to is not at all the same. I would never make a reference to Star Wars if I wanted to survive as long as I have and the situations I have known.
There is nothing in a twist about me , I am not a pacifist, or completely anti-war , atrocities don't not shock me, sorry to say.
The only peace Putin wants is when he is given his every demand. If he wanted peace he has f—ked up big time .
He doesn't want peace he wants at least a big slice of Ukraine with or without peace.
Donbas, is a border dispute, a vehicle to extend the Russian boundary, allied to its claims on Crimea. Casualties on both sides, with Russian ,claims as ever unsubstantiated massively complicated with little green men.
The Azov battalion, is no threat to Russia, outside of Ukraine,  and no worse than the mercenary arseholes Putin, boosts of. If NATO expansion was a problem, it has to be more of a worry for him now, if he hasn't proved the point of NATO he never will. The war didn't need to happen if , every body , mainly Ukraine, just rolled over and said please don't invade me. The Mayor and his family might have survived if they to had rolled over.
My one dimension is ,Russia, Putin, is old fashioned out of order. If it's peace he wants get back out and start talking again. Militarily he could prevail, but only with huge loses, and the prize a festering sore.

Azov Battalion doesn't need to be a threat to Russia Good Old. If you understood anything I have written, they are neo Nazis. They shouldn't be any where near being part of the f**king Ukraine Army if Zelensky wants his country to be credible. They are also linked to what Russia describe as genocide and mass graves in Donbass back in 2014. It seems these things only matter to you in 2022.

As for making excuses for Russia, I haven't made any excuses. I have said I don't agree with the war numerous times and that it seems crimes were committed in Bucha. But logic suggests given the relatively few deaths there are, this is targeted killings and as this is isolated to this town, not offical policy and rogue actions by said unit. And I have also said crimes were also committed by Ukrainians to Russian POW soldiers and we in the West have been guilty of such crimes in Iraq and Afghanistan. So where is the UN convention in those wars. The truth is war never follows a said pattern and every war breaks international law in some form. I don't make excuses for Russia. I am just pointing out Western hypocrisy.

[Borchester]

Of course, which is why I am sparing with the links I post, try to establish facts from multiple sources before posting and avoid reacting to the latest headline.
I try whenever possible to find links that have clear and indisputable context. I like Patrick Lancaster for this reason. He is on the ground, he shows plenty of context and he does no editing of the interviews he does with the people he talks to, in situ.

I would rather listen to someone in Mariupol talking about their experience, rather than someone claiming to have been in Mariupol, speaking perfect English while in Lvov! or interviews in Russian that are heavily edited and misleadingly translated.

Yes, I know. you will now trawl back and find a link I posted that is less than stellar in its accuracy or credibility. Never claimed to be perfect Cromwell.

Why don't we meet in the middle and agree that the folk in Mariupol think that being shelled is the biggest laugh since they last had such a laugh, but they would prefer that the Russians stopped and went home?