What is really happening in the Ukraine Conflict?

[B0ycey]

We really didn't need the Russian, army to give us another demonstration of how bad war is. And all the comparison to wars of long ago ,and not so long ago doesn't alter one fundamental factor, that would always have avoided making any comparison, or making any forlorn wish for peace. And that is don't invade your neighbour merely to alter the status quo. Putin ,and his Russian, legions are responsible for being in Ukraine, doing what they do. No one else. Other than proving he had the capability, which is seriously questionable in its self, there was little or no real reason for creating this kind mayhem with all of its dreadful human cost, in his neighbours territory.
The Ukrainian people that have sadly lost their lives to Putins power play, are victims in every sense.
As Putin, has proved peace is not a priority, for him, or he would never have shattered it, peace  may now be very hard to gain. One things for sure hand wringing will not bring peace, the Ukrainians know that better than all of us looking on.

If peace wasn't a priority for Russia, ask yourself why are they drafting up a peace deal with Ukraine as I type? You're too one dimensional in your thought processes Good Old. You really do just accept everything you are told and not to question it. If we were in the Star Wars universe you'll be easy pickings for the Jedi Mind trick. The truth is the reason for this war isn't so one sided. East Ukraine is pro Russian, hence the civil war. We could have saved ourselves a lot of trouble by dividing the country up in 2014. As it was we had the Minsk Agreement. Part of that was to have more representation in Donbass regional government which didn't happen and Russia described that as a violation. There was mass killings of Russian speaking people in Donbass and shallow graves in 2014 hence the conflict there and accusations of genocide which is ironic given that is now what you seem to have your knickers in a twist over in reverse in regards to Bucha. Second the Azov Battalion are neo Nazis. Those three things alone makes a peace keeping mission to some extent justifiable. Put in NATO expansion and that nobody was appreciating the Russian POV and invasion to some extent makes sense. And that isn't to say I agree with the war because I support sovereignty but merely pointing out that the invasion didn't need to take place at all had the West acted differently or the Ukrainian government didn't recruit Nazis or that genocide claims were taken seriously back in 2014.

[cromwell]

Are you saying the Mayor didn't take arms and defend his Town? But even so, I wonder what makes this town so special if such practice was widespread I mean. As for his wife, well my guess is she didn't yield. One thing I think we can appreciate from Ukrainians is they don't give up easily. But this of course is speculation on my part and actually on yours as well. We don't even know who is buried here and why they are. All I have said is I doubt the orders came from high up given these alleged war crimes seem isolated in one town. And that from everything I have seen and read, Russia have gone out there way to not target civilians 8f it can be avoided. My guess is all these people were POW and that would include the Mayor if he was captured.

Right so first you say don't target civilians and then when civilians were a target you move the goalposts,they all apparently had limbs broken before they were killed.


And this

Russia have gone out there way to not target civilians 8f it can be avoided.

Are you serious?

[Good old]

It may well exceed 20 people Cromwell, but really we do need to have an investigation to fully understand what has gone on and not just take the Ukraine narrative on full face value. As I said, I suspect all deaths were prisoners than targeting civilians and people not knowing what to do with them when the orders to move were given. There options would have been to set them free or kill them I should say. Not pretty I know. And not something I support. But this is the reality of war. If Russia were indeed targeting civilians then there would have been a significant more number of dead bodies on the streets. As for rape, that really is something that happens in war... every... single... one. The tales of Vietnam would send shivers down your spine if your a bit soft here Cromwell. War isn't pretty. That is why this war should end ASAP. And from what I have read talks seem to be going well. If that continues we may even have peace soon. That is if this rhetoric doesn't scupper that.

We really didn't need the Russian, army to give us another demonstration of how bad war is. And all the comparison to wars of long ago ,and not so long ago doesn't alter one fundamental factor, that would always have avoided making any comparison, or making any forlorn wish for peace. And that is don't invade your neighbour merely to alter the status quo. Putin ,and his Russian, legions are responsible for being in Ukraine, doing what they do. No one else. Other than proving he had the capability, which is seriously questionable in its self, there was little or no real reason for creating this kind mayhem with all of its dreadful human cost, in his neighbours territory.
The Ukrainian people that have sadly lost their lives to Putins power play, are victims in every sense.
As Putin, has proved peace is not a priority, for him, or he would never have shattered it, peace  may now be very hard to gain. One things for sure hand wringing will not bring peace, the Ukrainians know that better than all of us looking on.

[B0ycey]

Right so the Mayors wife and son other townspeople were by account in this mass grave so are de facto civilians aren't they?

Are you saying the Mayor didn't take arms and defend his Town? But even so, I wonder what makes this town so special if such practice was widespread I mean. As for his wife, well my guess is she didn't yield. One thing I think we can appreciate from Ukrainians is they don't give up easily. But this of course is speculation on my part and actually on yours as well. We don't even know who is buried here and why they are. All I have said is I doubt the orders came from high up given these alleged war crimes seem isolated in one town. And that from everything I have seen and read, Russia have gone out there way to not target civilians 8f it can be avoided. My guess is all these people were POW and that would include the Mayor if he was captured.

[B0ycey]

You mean, should the West ignore it like they ignored Russian POWs being shot at last week I guess. Well, what can I say, there is a propaganda war going on if you hadn't noticed. Who, what, where and how someone gets shot depends on who is doing the shooting it seems.

[cromwell]

It may well exceed 20 people Cromwell, but really we do need to have an investigation to fully understand what has gone on and not just take the Ukraine narrative on full face value. As I said, I suspect all deaths were prisoners than targeting civilians and people not knowing what to do with them when the orders to move were given. There options would have been to set them free or kill them I should say. Not pretty I know. And not something I support. But this is the reality of war. If Russia were indeed targeting civilians then there would have been a significant more number of dead bodies on the streets. As for rape, that really is something that happens in war... every... single... one. The tales of Vietnam would send shivers down your spine if your a bit soft here Cromwell. War isn't pretty. That is why this war should end ASAP. And from what I have read talks seem to be going well. If that continues we may even have peace soon. That is if this rhetoric doesn't scupper that.

Right so the Mayors wife and son other townspeople were by account in this mass grave so are de facto civilians aren't they?

[B0ycey]

Certain rules,you mean like don't rape? secondly just because the west haven't always played by every rule are we supposed to ignore this?

Lastly only 20 people ? if this is correct it's a damn sight more.
https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1510298120118325257?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1510298120118325257%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=

It may well exceed 20 people Cromwell, but really we do need to have an investigation to fully understand what has gone on and not just take the Ukraine narrative on full face value. As I said, I suspect all deaths were prisoners than targeting civilians and people not knowing what to do with them when the orders to move were given. There options would have been to set them free or kill them I should say. Not pretty I know. And not something I support. But this is the reality of war. If Russia were indeed targeting civilians then there would have been a significant more number of dead bodies on the streets. As for rape, that really is something that happens in war... every... single... one. The tales of Vietnam would send shivers down your spine if your a bit soft here Cromwell. War isn't pretty. That is why this war should end ASAP. And from what I have read talks seem to be going well. If that continues we may even have peace soon. That is if this rhetoric doesn't scupper that. 

[cromwell]

I could give shit loads of examples of war crimes committed by the West in Afghanistan and Iraq as there is plenty that have made the news. And there are going to be plenty that would have been hushed up. My point is that those in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones. The idea any war follows a certain path and that all rules are adhered to is so farcical it is unreal. There are certain rules that should be followed. Dont target civilians with napalm/carpet bomb, don't use biological weapons, dont form concentration camps, no to gasing POWs, shit like that, because we shouldn't be beasts. But everything else is kind of expected. It doesn't mean it is right, but is part of war. It was only last week that Ukraine shot unarmed Russian POWs. What was our response then? To stop given arms to Ukraine so they couldn't do it again? Nope, this was largely ignored by the West. And now we are suppose to sanctions Russia further for what is 20 deaths because they weren't in uniform but most likely part of the armed forces given every male was told to stay and fight? It is getting ridiculous. Russia are moving their fight to the East, which has been part of a civil war for 8 years. We should be thankful that the operation is now limited. Instead at this rate Boris is going to have to sanction himself for having a Russian first name. Cor Blimey , we sanctioned Abramovich when Zlensky said we shouldn't because we ran out of Tory donors to sanction. Is that where we are? I have always supported sanctioning sectors of the economy that fuels war and that is it. Iron, steel, components, ok stop exporting them. Impounding yachts and stopping Burgerking from flipping burgers doesn't do anything to stop this war I don't care what anyone says. And stop buying Russian gas is going to hurt us more than them. So I would rather the West look at this objectively right now. Condemn the action by all means. But please don't make out that it is more than what it is which is 20 deaths in a war that has had thousands.

Certain rules,you mean like don't rape? secondly just because the west haven't always played by every rule are we supposed to ignore this?

Lastly only 20 people ? if this is correct it's a damn sight more.
https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1510298120118325257?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1510298120118325257%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=

[B0ycey]

You only give one example of misdemeanour ,in action by our own.  There have been others. And in most cases public knowledge. You know of it we all know of it. And that is a big part of the difference. The other being that what is seen in Ukraine is on an industrial scale.
The Russian people are not in the know about any of this let alone potential war crimes. The fact is they are not allowed to know they are at war, and their military is raising populated city's to the ground. Much of which would alone constitute a war crime. As ever all is denied, if they say it's isn't happening in Russia, then who is to say otherwise.

I could give shit loads of examples of war crimes committed by the West in Afghanistan and Iraq as there is plenty that have made the news. And there are going to be plenty that would have been hushed up. My point is that those in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones. The idea any war follows a certain path and that all rules are adhered to is so farcical it is unreal. There are certain rules that should be followed. Dont target civilians with napalm/carpet bomb, don't use biological weapons, dont form concentration camps, no to gasing POWs, shit like that, because we shouldn't be beasts. But everything else is kind of expected. It doesn't mean it is right, but is part of war. It was only last week that Ukraine shot unarmed Russian POWs. What was our response then? To stop given arms to Ukraine so they couldn't do it again? Nope, this was largely ignored by the West. And now we are suppose to sanctions Russia further for what is 20 deaths because they weren't in uniform but most likely part of the armed forces given every male was told to stay and fight? It is getting ridiculous. Russia are moving their fight to the East, which has been part of a civil war for 8 years. We should be thankful that the operation is now limited. Instead at this rate Boris is going to have to sanction himself for having a Russian first name. Cor Blimey , we sanctioned Abramovich when Zlensky said we shouldn't because we ran out of Tory donors to sanction. Is that where we are? I have always supported sanctioning sectors of the economy that fuels war and that is it. Iron, steel, components, ok stop exporting them. Impounding yachts and stopping Burgerking from flipping burgers doesn't do anything to stop this war I don't care what anyone says. And stop buying Russian gas is going to hurt us more than them. So I would rather the West look at this objectively right now. Condemn the action by all means. But please don't make out that it is more than what it is which is 20 deaths in a war that has had thousands.

[Good old]

Totally agree this is a bloody awful war and I hope it ends soon, but I do wish people would stop spouting propaganda like it matters because people can't see that what they are up in arms about isn't unique to this war. I REMEMBER vividly the UK army squad leader filmed shooting dead a civilian Afgan hostage because the guy was injured and it wouldn't have been practical to carry him to safety. And everyone at the time could see why he did it despite in not being allowed by the Geneva convention. We are talking about 20 people here and a war environment where rules do not apply within reason. This is not f**king genocide. I don't know what happened but I don't think it is a false flag operation nor do I agree with the BS Zelensky is saying right now. I don't believe the orders came from the top. All evidence I have seen, and that includes the West media evidence, shows me that Russia are not targeting citizens so why is this city so special? It isn't. We also know all males weren't allowed to evacuate Ukraine. Which means most of the Ukraine army are not in army and defacto not in uniform. These twenty people would have been POW and whoever was in charge was probably told to evacuate out of the city given Russia is moving troops to Donbass. The leader would then have had a choice to either take the POWs with him or shoot them. Clearly he didn't adhere to the UN charter, but one act isn't systematic and if we are to judge Russia to these standards, then we arent exactly looking pretty either given the shit that went down in Guantanamo.

You only give one example of misdemeanour ,in action by our own.  There have been others. And in most cases public knowledge. You know of it we all know of it. And that is a big part of the difference. The other being that what is seen in Ukraine is on an industrial scale.
 The Russian people are not in the know about any of this let alone potential war crimes. The fact is they are not allowed to know they are at war, and their military is raising populated city's to the ground. Much of which would alone constitute a war crime. As ever all is denied, if they say it's isn't happening in Russia, then who is to say otherwise. 

[Sampanviking]

The reports of rape and civilians with hands tied behind their backs shot dead in places retaken from Russian control.

What a bloody awful war.....sorry special military operation,don't mention the war.

I have seen a number of images, some a lot less convincing than others. Some of the bodies looked pretty undamaged and unbloodied and very fresh for areas that the Russians withdrew from some four days earlier.

Not saying killings have not happened or not possible, but that with a Ukrainian leadership obsessed with media image and presentation and a western media that abandoned objectivity and impartiality long before a shot was fired, taking anything as face value is going to be a mistake.

Some points
The moment the Ukraine fully mobilised and started handing out AK 47's to the general population, the line between civilian and combatant became blurred beyond useful definition. I have not seen bodies that are not of young men of military service age. Many Ukrainian regulars and local defense groups travel in civilian vehicles, so any group of young males approaching a Russian check point on the front line of an active war zone, are going to be viewed with suspicion. I see DD alluded to this very point a little further back.

The area had been an active warzone for over a month and there is little way of telling what destruction happened when. In addition with both sides using very similar armour, telling a burnt Russian tank from a burnt out Ukrainian tank is difficult simply through a short video clip.

Whatever operational mistakes were made by this Northern Russian force, they were not defeated militarily, simply blocked which made their continued presence largely pointless and they were able to execute a very fast tactical withdrawal in good order back across the Belarusian border. The Russians still have the ability to maneuver, to a degree in which the Ukrainians cannot and the Russians can move through Belarus and Russia to reach a position within Ukraine. Hell they may even be drawing the Ukrainians towards the Belarus border so they can burst back in from the sides and build an instant cauldron along the banks of the Dnieper.

Clearly hopes of an early and easy victory have been discarded, this simply means that the Russian army to going to take the kid gloves off and start fighting with all its conventional resources.

[Good old]

The reports of rape and civilians with hands tied behind their backs shot dead in places retaken from Russian control.

What a bloody awful war.....sorry special military operation,don't mention the war.

All propaganda, those nasty Ukrainians, begged Putin to save them. And now they  show they didn't, they deliberately set up these  appalling examples of mass destruction, and murder.
Poor old Putin, conned all round..

[B0ycey]

The reports of rape and civilians with hands tied behind their backs shot dead in places retaken from Russian control.

What a bloody awful war.....sorry special military operation,don't mention the war.

Totally agree this is a bloody awful war and I hope it ends soon, but I do wish people would stop spouting propaganda like it matters because people can't see that what they are up in arms about isn't unique to this war. I REMEMBER vividly the UK army squad leader filmed shooting dead a civilian Afgan hostage because the guy was injured and it wouldn't have been practical to carry him to safety. And everyone at the time could see why he did it despite in not being allowed by the Geneva convention. We are talking about 20 people here and a war environment where rules do not apply within reason. This is not fucking genocide. I don't know what happened but I don't think it is a false flag operation nor do I agree with the BS Zelensky is saying right now. I don't believe the orders came from the top. All evidence I have seen, and that includes the West media evidence, shows me that Russia are not targeting citizens so why is this city so special? It isn't. We also know all males weren't allowed to evacuate Ukraine. Which means most of the Ukraine army are not in army and defacto not in uniform. These twenty people would have been POW and whoever was in charge was probably told to evacuate out of the city given Russia is moving troops to Donbass. The leader would then have had a choice to either take the POWs with him or shoot them. Clearly he didn't adhere to the UN charter, but one act isn't systematic and if we are to judge Russia to these standards, then we arent exactly looking pretty either given the shit that went down in Guantanamo.

[cromwell]

The reports of rape and civilians with hands tied behind their backs shot dead in places retaken from Russian control.

What a bloody awful war.....sorry special military operation,don't mention the war.

[Scott777]

You don't get much truth direct from the media, but can sometimes read between the lines.

"Pentagon Clarifies There's No "Offensive" Bioweapons At US-Linked Ukraine Labs".

Just like how there were no offensive viruses engineered at offensive Wuhan labs.

And there are no offensive Ukrainian neo-nazis.

And the Met police never carry offensive weapons, and if they accidentally put a baton across your skull, it was not done offensively.

And the Iraq war was not offensive, and Tony did not tell any offensive lies.

🤣

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/pentagon-says-pathogens-us-linked-ukraine-labs-not-offensive-bioweapons