What is really happening in the Ukraine Conflict?

[Good old]

Yes, and I was returning the favour - I have a been called a lot of things here over the last few months, so I decided to hand it back.

Well maybe you should hand it back to those that dish it out to you.  I made a point of not referring to you in anyway derogatory or otherwise. As I said to you , I left it to others to decide how they thought you should be described .

[Sampanviking]

And because Good old deviated from your narrative you called him a neo con shill,as I said previously works both ways.

Yes, and I was returning the favour - I have a been called a lot of things here over the last few months, so I decided to hand it back.

[cromwell]

Well SCMP is definitely the Western Voice in Hong Kong and always was. The idea of it being a mouthpiece for Beijing is more than a little amusing.

Yes we are all coloured by our prejudices. It just means that we have to work harder to try and be objective. For me this is not made any easier by our establishment effectively saying that anyone who questions or deviates from the official narrative is some kind of Putin shill or Bot. Not exacting a Stirling position  from which to protect Freedom and Democracy.

The MSM coverage has been utterly fraudulent with anecdotal evidence presented as fact, with some very very dodgy interviews. R4 Today program has had some crackers
To quote as best as I can " The workers at the Zaphorisia Nuclear Power Plant have been held at gunpoint at the plant and not even allowed to go home, but we managed to phone one up and have a long interview and guess what? he speaks perfect English with just enough accent to make it sound real and but not so thick to make him unintelligible" OK I made the last bit up, but the rest is straight up and its obvious bulwarks. It is bit one of many.

So yes it is difficult for me to do anything but distrust and disbelieve and official MSM source. Not to say that everything they say is not true, but the messenger is so tainted that every message has to be suspect.

And because Good old deviated from your narrative you called him a neo con shill,as I said previously works both ways.

[Nick]

A bunker bomb is no good on that type of bridge. However, Ukraine has been supplied with missiles that would do the job.
Ukraine also has its own missiles capable of doing that amount of damage to a bridge.

So how did Ukraine paint the bridge from 200 miles away? I suppose you think they just happen to have an AWACS flying over Russian airspace?

[Sampanviking]

Lead a horse to water......more than a bit patronising,why do you assume I or anyone else is a half wit unable to look at a wide range of media.

I could've posted a link to the south China morning post which was saying pretty much the same thing.

But you'd just say that's more western media while there are as many say it's a mouthpiece for Xi and his govt.

Isn't it more realistic to accept we're all more receptive to that which backs up our own thoughts even prejudices?

Well SCMP is definitely the Western Voice in Hong Kong and always was. The idea of it being a mouthpiece for Beijing is more than a little amusing.

Yes we are all coloured by our prejudices. It just means that we have to work harder to try and be objective. For me this is not made any easier by our establishment effectively saying that anyone who questions or deviates from the official narrative is some kind of Putin shill or Bot. Not exacting a Stirling position  from which to protect Freedom and Democracy.

The MSM coverage has been utterly fraudulent with anecdotal evidence presented as fact, with some very very dodgy interviews. R4 Today program has had some crackers
To quote as best as I can " The workers at the Zaphorisia Nuclear Power Plant have been held at gunpoint at the plant and not even allowed to go home, but we managed to phone one up and have a long interview and guess what? he speaks perfect English with just enough accent to make it sound real and but not so thick to make him unintelligible" OK I made the last bit up, but the rest is straight up and its obvious bulwarks. It is bit one of many.

So yes it is difficult for me to do anything but distrust and disbelieve and official MSM source. Not to say that everything they say is not true, but the messenger is so tainted that every message has to be suspect.

[cromwell]

Well first to qualify my response to your link - you posted a program fronted by Femi Oke who is ex BBC and ex CNN among other US and UK stations, so yes she is definitely MSM and so her output has to be judged accordingly.

I am very careful with the links I post - if they are opinion, just take them as such and compare them to the real events on the ground
As for the combat footage, I make sure it is demonstrably real. So not just pictures of a piece of equipment, if something has been captured, its  an image of video with the vehicle or weapon with soldiers interacting with it. This is a lot more than you get from many sources on the Pro-Ukrainian side which is quite infantile with its degree of fakery and misdiscription.

I can however only lead a horse to water.....

Lead a horse to water......more than a bit patronising,why do you assume I or anyone else is a half wit unable to look at a wide range of media.

I could've posted a link to the south China morning post which was saying pretty much the same thing.

But you'd just say that's more western media while there are as many say it's a mouthpiece for Xi and his govt.

Isn't it more realistic to accept we're all more receptive to that which backs up our own thoughts even prejudices?

[Sampanviking]

And the multiple links you've posted in this thread are legit? anyone can post links without any real proof.

Works both ways SPV.

Well first to qualify my response to your link - you posted a program fronted by Femi Oke who is ex BBC and ex CNN among other US and UK stations, so yes she is definitely MSM and so her output has to be judged accordingly.

I am very careful with the links I post - if they are opinion, just take them as such and compare them to the real events on the ground
As for the combat footage, I make sure it is demonstrably real. So not just pictures of a piece of equipment, if something has been captured, its  an image of video with the vehicle or weapon with soldiers interacting with it. This is a lot more than you get from many sources on the Pro-Ukrainian side which is quite infantile with its degree of fakery and misdiscription.

I can however only lead a horse to water.....

[cromwell]

Are they?
Any real proof that huge numbers are leaving?
Anyone can stick a caption under a photo
The Finns debunked claims about excessive queues on their borders themselves. The link is on this thread.

Loads of young men also legged it out of Ukraine in the first days of the war, until Zelensky banned any males of military service age from leaving the country, that was still in Feb or very early March.

Anyway time for a dodgy caption:

Hundreds of Thousands of terrified Brits head to Dover and other UK Ports after Putin nuke threats!

And the multiple links you've posted in this thread are legit? anyone can post links without any real proof.

Works both ways SPV.

[Sampanviking]

If, as you say, the Russian people are so keen on Putins warmongering, why are so many of them seeking to become citizens of just about every country Russia shares a border they can run across so as to avoid getting drafted ?

Are they?
Any real proof that huge numbers are leaving?
Anyone can stick a caption under a photo
The Finns debunked claims about excessive queues on their borders themselves. The link is on this thread.

Loads of young men also legged it out of Ukraine in the first days of the war, until Zelensky banned any males of military service age from leaving the country, that was still in Feb or very early March.

Anyway time for a dodgy caption:

Hundreds of Thousands of terrified Brits head to Dover and other UK Ports after Putin nuke threats!

[cromwell]

If, as you say, the Russian people are so keen on Putins warmongering, why are so many of them seeking to become citizens of just about every country Russia shares a border they can run across so as to avoid getting drafted ?

All lies apparently John made up by the western media. 

[johnofgwent]

What do you know Cromwell, you only get your info from Western media, which has long ago abandoned any notion of objective reporting and are now simply shills for blatant propaganda and a very obvious Psyche Op being waged to try and cause regime upset in Russia.

Any casual observation of any other media source will show it is not working.
The main criticism of Putin at home is that he is not being aggressive enough and has taken too long to start committing the real Russian Army in strength into the conflict (most fighting to date having been carried out by those who you would regard as Ukrainian plus some volunteer militia such as the Chechens)

I do sometimes underestimate the banality of the Western MSM and so I realise that the narritive they are trying to sell you is along these lines:

"The entire Russian army has been in the Ukraine for the last six months, most of whom have been killed by a various Western supplied Wiunderwaffe and now whats left is in rapid retreat and so Putin is desperately having raise an extra 300,000 conscripts to try and plug the gaps"

Yes? anyone actually believe this?

Latest footage from Kherson as The Ukrainians try yet another human wave attack against the Russian defensive line
https://twitter.com/AZgeopolitics/status/1579025764179382272

If, as you say, the Russian people are so keen on Putins warmongering, why are so many of them seeking to become citizens of just about every country Russia shares a border they can run across so as to avoid getting drafted ?

[Sampanviking]

What I know is I got this info from Al Jazeera earler today so you are counting them as western media? 
https://www.aljazeera.com/program/the-stream/2022/10/6/are-russians-souring-on-the-war-in-ukraine
Yeah I was more thinking of the Smurf digging a hole called obstinate

I definitely regard Al-Jezeera as a pro Western media source and I quote it on that basis.

[papasmurf]

Well, it does really, because Sheepy, in sheepy language is alluding to the likelihood that a major player was involved in blowing up that bridge. Who has large, very high explosive bombs, like bunker bombs?

A bunker bomb is no good on that type of bridge. However, Ukraine has been supplied with missiles that would do the job.
Ukraine also has its own missiles capable of doing that amount of damage to a bridge.

[Sheepy]

What do you know Cromwell, you only get your info from Western media, which has long ago abandoned any notion of objective reporting and are now simply shills for blatant propaganda and a very obvious Psyche Op being waged to try and cause regime upset in Russia.

Any casual observation of any other media source will show it is not working.
The main criticism of Putin at home is that he is not being aggressive enough and has taken too long to start committing the real Russian Army in strength into the conflict (most fighting to date having been carried out by those who you would regard as Ukrainian plus some volunteer militia such as the Chechens)

I do sometimes underestimate the banality of the Western MSM and so I realise that the narritive they are trying to sell you is along these lines:

"The entire Russian army has been in the Ukraine for the last six months, most of whom have been killed by a various Western supplied Wiunderwaffe and now whats left is in rapid retreat and so Putin is desperately having raise an extra 300,000 conscripts to try and plug the gaps"

Yes? anyone actually believe this?

Latest footage from Kherson as The Ukrainians try yet another human wave attack against the Russian defensive line
https://twitter.com/AZgeopolitics/status/1579025764179382272

He expects you to talk the talk, but he doesn't seem to be walking the walk on your behalf.

[cromwell]

What do you know Cromwell, you only get your info from Western media, which has long ago abandoned any notion of objective reporting and are now simply shills for blatant propaganda and a very obvious Psyche Op being waged to try and cause regime upset in Russia.

Any casual observation of any other media source will show it is not working.
The main criticism of Putin at home is that he is not being aggressive enough and has taken too long to start committing the real Russian Army in strength into the conflict (most fighting to date having been carried out by those who you would regard as Ukrainian plus some volunteer militia such as the Chechens)

I do sometimes underestimate the banality of the Western MSM and so I realise that the narritive they are trying to sell you is along these lines:

"The entire Russian army has been in the Ukraine for the last six months, most of whom have been killed by a various Western supplied Wiunderwaffe and now whats left is in rapid retreat and so Putin is desperately having raise an extra 300,000 conscripts to try and plug the gaps"

Yes? anyone actually believe this?

Latest footage from Kherson as The Ukrainians try yet another human wave attack against the Russian defensive line
https://twitter.com/AZgeopolitics/status/1579025764179382272

What I know is I got this info from Al Jazeera earler today so you are counting them as western media?  
https://www.aljazeera.com/program/the-stream/2022/10/6/are-russians-souring-on-the-war-in-ukraine

Well, it does really, because Sheepy, in sheepy language is alluding to the likelihood that a major player was involved in blowing up that bridge. Who has large, very high explosive bombs, like bunker bombs?

Yeah I was more thinking of the Smurf digging a hole called obstinate