What is really happening in the Ukraine Conflict?

[Sheepy]

You can't be beaten for a regular supply of nonsense. Its not nonsense to reject what Putin does in Ukraine, it only becomes nonsense in the eye of those that think he is perfectly right to invade and murder his neighbours, on the shallow pretext that Ukraine can not  sort its own problems out.

Looking for any excuse to back Western interference certainly is nonsense; I don't need telling by you what is what either. 

[Good old]

The point is stop talking nonsense and Boycey has a point it isn't past the point of no return depending on Vlad and what he does next.

You can't be beaten for a regular supply of nonsense. Its not nonsense to reject what Putin does in Ukraine, it only becomes nonsense in the eye of those that think he is perfectly right to invade and murder his neighbours, on the shallow pretext that Ukraine can not  sort its own problems out.

[Sheepy]

On the other hand if we had avoided it ,giving  the Germans the scope to hit Russia with everything they had the Russians would have lost. So what's the point?

The point is stop talking nonsense and Boycey has a point it isn't past the point of no return depending on Vlad and what he does next.

[Good old]

Maybe the Russian should have avoided WW2 and we would have lost for sure.

On the other hand if we had avoided it ,giving  the Germans the scope to hit Russia with everything they had the Russians would have lost. So what's the point?

[Sheepy]

If only it was nonsense, Maybe they could have avoided WW2 Boycey. As said let Ukrainians talk without Russian armies all over them. Then it can be judged , the future for that area can not be easily decided , that's obvious.
But only a state of strict neutrality stands a chance, and the best Putin would give to that would be lip service.
None of which can happen whilst he is content to kill Ukrainians until they are fed up with being killed.

Maybe the Russian should have avoided WW2 and we would have lost for sure.

[Barry]

The Russian partial mobilisation, seems to include some real natural born killers!!

I wasn't expecting a ginger, more likely a Russian blue.

[Good old]

Ignoring most of this nonsense, all I will say is Ukraine has already negotiated and signed up to an autonomous Donbass region. The fact it never became autonomous is simply down to the fact the area has a huge Russian backing and wasn't something they really want to implement.

If only it was nonsense, Maybe they could have avoided WW2 Boycey. As said let Ukrainians talk without Russian armies all over them. Then it can be judged , the future for that area can not be easily decided , that's obvious.
But only a state of strict neutrality stands a chance, and the best Putin would give to that would be lip service.
None of which can happen whilst he is content to kill Ukrainians until they are fed up with being killed.

[B0ycey]

No !I know full well why he has done what he does. Even with half a brain . There really is nothing confusing  in what he does. There will be support in Donbas, for him, it would be surprising if there was not. Do you think when Hitler went into the Sudetenland , and Silesia, many locals didn't object at all, they felt German after all. Did it make him right to do  so?
There are many in the Alsace region of France ,to this day would choose Germany, given an option.
The western narrative is Putin has invaded a neighbour in Europe, with the objective of making the land involved Russian.that is an objective rejected  by most European nations since before WW1 , I freely admit to agreeing with that rejection whole heartedly.  We could judge Zelensky if he negotiated with Ukrainians, as it stands he can not do that, and will not get the chance with the Russians in place. He has every right to want the Russians out, in fact it needs the Russians to back off.
Of course they will not in a hurry because this is not really for them about ethnic Russians, it's about expanding Russian territory that's why he will end up mobilised, at immense cost in not just cash but Russian lives,  to enlarge Russia, land has people on it, you either give them tenancy or evict, and that's exactly what they do.
I know what he does, and I know he treads a very thin line , just as others before him have done with the direst of consequences for everyone. I'm not going to clap him just because others seem to admire what he does, which up to now is brinkmanship, politically. And murder socially.

Ignoring most of this nonsense, all I will say is Ukraine has already negotiated and signed up to an autonomous Donbass region. The fact it never became autonomous is simply down to the fact the area has a huge Russian backing and wasn't something they really want to implement.

[Good old]

Good Old, you have to change the record. You only accept the Western narrative. There is plenty of support in the Donbass for this referendum. Whether you accept why Russia are there is irrelevant. There reasoning makes sense to anyone with half a brain. If the West truly believed that everyone is being held against their own wishes, you have to question why Zelensky is so reluctant to give the region autonomy given such a compromise would defacto return the nation to Keiv if his assertion was true.

No !I know full well why he has done what he does. Even with half a brain . There really is nothing confusing  in what he does. There will be support in Donbas, for him, it would be surprising if there was not. Do you think when Hitler went into the Sudetenland , and Silesia, many locals didn't object at all, they felt German after all. Did it make him right to do  so?
There are many in the Alsace region of France ,to this day would choose Germany, given an option.
The western narrative is Putin has invaded a neighbour in Europe, with the objective of making the land involved Russian.that is an objective rejected  by most European nations since before WW1 , I freely admit to agreeing with that rejection whole heartedly.  We could judge Zelensky if he negotiated with Ukrainians, as it stands he can not do that, and will not get the chance with the Russians in place. He has every right to want the Russians out, in fact it needs the Russians to back off.
Of course they will not in a hurry because this is not really for them about ethnic Russians, it's about expanding Russian territory that's why he will end up mobilised, at immense cost in not just cash but Russian lives,  to enlarge Russia, land has people on it, you either give them tenancy or evict, and that's exactly what they do.
I know what he does, and I know he treads a very thin line , just as others before him have done with the direst of consequences for everyone. I'm not going to clap him just because others seem to admire what he does, which up to now is brinkmanship, politically. And murder socially.

[Sampanviking]

The Russian partial mobilisation, seems to include some real natural born killers!!

[B0ycey]

Russia, has invented every move in this so called civil war. Initially sending in mavericks, then 150,000 regulars and more mercenaries. Now they mobilise a minimum of 300,000 veterans .yet they say it's not a war, let alone a civil war.  And now they run a referendum in what is without any doubt a country under armed occupation. What do the locals vote for? Not being put against a wall maybe. Just say ,Yes, comrade, wink, wink.
Every one knows the saying," you couldn't make it up", Putin , like every tin pot dictator before him that had fantasies of the domination of his neighbours , knows that is just not true. If it fits your fantasy , anything can be made up, and even acted on. Maybe every part of Europe in dispute with its mother nation, and there are many, should invite the Russian army in, and let them run a referendum as to their future. Yes ridiculous isn't it.
This tragedy will only end with dialogue that's true. When though maybe some way off.

Good Old, you have to change the record. You only accept the Western narrative. There is plenty of support in the Donbass for this referendum. Whether you accept why Russia are there is irrelevant. There reasoning makes sense to anyone with half a brain. If the West truly believed that everyone is being held against their own wishes, you have to question why Zelensky is so reluctant to give the region autonomy given such a compromise would defacto return the nation to Keiv if his assertion was true.

[Good old]

As for a referendum, perhaps the objective of it isn't for it to be legitimate or even for it to be an absolute. It is to show the world that there is a significant proportion of the Donbass population they don't want to be under Keiv rule. It is about time you realise this is and has always been a civil war and that only in cooperation and negotiation can peace be achieved. Thinking one side or the other can take control and run the entire Donbass under peace is about as farcical as it can be right now.

Russia, has invented every move in this so called civil war. Initially sending in mavericks, then 150,000 regulars and more mercenaries. Now they mobilise a minimum of 300,000 veterans .yet they say it's not a war, let alone a civil war.  And now they run a referendum in what is without any doubt a country under armed occupation. What do the locals vote for? Not being put against a wall maybe. Just say ,Yes, comrade, wink, wink. 
Every one knows the saying," you couldn't make it up", Putin , like every tin pot dictator before him that had fantasies of the domination of his neighbours , knows that is just not true. If it fits your fantasy , anything can be made up, and even acted on. Maybe every part of Europe in dispute with its mother nation, and there are many, should invite the Russian army in, and let them run a referendum as to their future. Yes ridiculous isn't it.
This tragedy will only end with dialogue that's true. When though maybe some way off.

[B0ycey]

There are International Observers on the ground, including from Germany
The President of the BRICS organisation has also arrived in the vicinity to help administer the elections.

It does seem that other than the G7 and NATO countries, much of the rest of the world is recognising the validity of these elections.
Obviously the EU doesn't but then they have quite a lot of form in this respect, don't they?

Apart from those who recognise the independence of the Donesk and Luhansk, I doubt anyone will recognise this result and that will include China. How much credibility is there to a referendum during an armed conflict anyway? But it will only be a handful of nations who will condemn it in any case. Most nations will just keep out of it. As I said, the purpose of the referendum is to highlight why Russia are in the Donbass so it doesn't need recognition. They are there to liberate Russian speakers. If negotiations could yield a UN sanctioned referendum I expect that would be what Russia would rather have because then they would have international recognition and to be honest, it may well be a basis of talks if everyone is happy of that.

[Sampanviking]

Perhaps that could be negotiated Cromwell. At the moment they are there (according to Russia) to protect the Russian speaking residents of Ukraine. I would expect Russia would rather the referendum be under UN control and be more than happy for another to take place along with ensuring peace if they ran it. At the moment there isn't the compromise for such a referendum to take place is there.

There are International Observers on the ground, including from Germany
The President of the BRICS organisation has also arrived in the vicinity to help administer the elections.

It does seem that other than the G7 and NATO countries, much of the rest of the world is recognising the validity of these elections.
Obviously the EU doesn't but then they have quite a lot of form in this respect, don't they?

[B0ycey]

I don't have to realise anything,sputum invaded and is the aggresor.

If referenda are to be held in should be done post withdrawal and under a UN controlled environment.

Perhaps that could be negotiated Cromwell. At the moment they are there (according to Russia) to protect the Russian speaking residents of Ukraine. I would expect Russia would rather the referendum be under UN control and be more than happy for another to take place along with ensuring peace if they ran it. At the moment there isn't the compromise for such a referendum to take place is there.