What is really happening in the Ukraine Conflict?

[Sheepy]

Kosovo=annexation of Serbia. Verdict acceptable to the West not to the UN.

Shame it was before WW1, but Texas annexation from Mexico. Verdict acceptable.

Former CIA Moscow chief of station on Putin's nuclear war threat (msn.com)
From the people who know how Russians think and work. Don't kid yourselves or like Barry says prepare to make your peace with whichever god it is you pray too.

[cromwell]

[B0ycey]

Not since world war 1 has Putins kind of aggressive land grabbing been considered acceptable, particularly in Europe.

Kosovo=annexation of Serbia. Verdict acceptable to the West not to the UN.

Shame it was before WW1, but Texas annexation from Mexico. Verdict acceptable.

[Good old]

What the f**k are you even talking about? This is hypocrisy by definition and doesn't even make sense. Kosovo is Serbia. Yet we recognise Kosovo. Taiwan is China. Officially we accept that yet we don't act as we do and certainly the US doesn't in any case. These aren't even historic events. They are current events. Kosovo nearly went into civil war over numberplates a few months back and China did military exercises when Pelosi came and stayed over. All Putin has done is what the West have done for decades. We either accept people have the right to self determination or we don't. Even back in 2014 I said that Ukraine should split given the cultural differences. Somehow we managed to agree on autonomy with the Minsk agreement. So if Zelensky wants to talk to Russia on implementing that he should do so given Putin on Friday said he was open to restart talks. Or if he is confident that he is the Liberator of these regions, he could discuss UN ran Referendums in the region and if he wins, Russia has to retreat. Doing nothing costs Ukrainian lives. I am fed up of listening to your dribble on the subject as if Russia invading was somehow unexpected, illegal or whatever. History matters on these things and what we need is compromising dialogue where the outcome is nobody wins.

Plain and simple what I'm talking about. Nothing of a contentious nature around the world can be solved by annexing taking someone else's territory and referring to as your own from that point on.under any circumstance.
In plain simple international terms it is totally illegal.  Nothing that happened or happens else where alters that fact.
Not since world war 1 has Putins kind of aggressive land grabbing been considered acceptable, particularly in Europe.
And saying you know why he does it, and why shouldn't he because  he doeas it for his country is total rubbish.
Hitler did it for his country, it wasn't acceptable then and it isn't now. If you don't know what I'm on about it's because you don't accept it , not because you don't know what I'm on about. 

[B0ycey]

All through history we can come up with what abouts. Every situation is different to a degree. So all using what abouts does is partially reflect on the present  situation, not act as an excuse for the present situation.
Yes there are political diplomatic wrangles , holding any number of hot beds from actually bursting into flame.
Putins problem is he has lit a fire, as against dancing around the makings of one.  He is going beyond the situations you want taken into account.
He is intent on annexing the land he invaded , not just recognising it as sovereign.  None of those examples you give  have become part of the sovereignty of the US, the. U.K., or any one else.  He like some medieval monarch thinks he can increase the size of Russia. It's no secret now ,he proclaims it, loud and clear.
There is no nuclear option, outside of obliteration for all . Shame he even used the threat of it, no matter how those threats were  framed.

What the f**k are you even talking about? This is hypocrisy by definition and doesn't even make sense. Kosovo is Serbia. Yet we recognise Kosovo. Taiwan is China. Officially we accept that yet we don't act as we do and certainly the US doesn't in any case. These aren't even historic events. They are current events. Kosovo nearly went into civil war over numberplates a few months back and China did military exercises when Pelosi came and stayed over. All Putin has done is what the West have done for decades. We either accept people have the right to self determination or we don't. Even back in 2014 I said that Ukraine should split given the cultural differences. Somehow we managed to agree on autonomy with the Minsk agreement. So if Zelensky wants to talk to Russia on implementing that he should do so given Putin on Friday said he was open to restart talks. Or if he is confident that he is the Liberator of these regions, he could discuss UN ran Referendums in the region and if he wins, Russia has to retreat. Doing nothing costs Ukrainian lives. I am fed up of listening to your dribble on the subject as if Russia invading was somehow unexpected, illegal or whatever. History matters on these things and what we need is compromising dialogue where the outcome is nobody wins.

[Good old]

Kosovo isn't internationally recognised and legally Serbia. Doesn't stop the West recognising it. And how about Taiwan? Internationally and legally China, the West collectively sign up to the One China policy and yet still plays all sorts of inflammatory games trying to use ambiguity langauage in order to treat Taiwan as its own sovereign nation despite what they signed up to. The West screams UN and international law when it suits them and ditches the same charters when it doesn't. Do you want me to mention the illegal wars in the Middle East again?

As for Putin, all the actions he has taken so far is in regards to protecting his nation. Only you think NATO expansion on its borders isn't a security risk for them. And whether it is right or wrong about whether he should have invaded, he is right that Russian speakers in the Donbass were being persecuted in terms of their history and language and he is broadly right that the Donbass want to be part of Russia. So given all that, you can see clearly all his actions so far is in regard to the Motherland and not his vanity. Why would someone do so much for their nation and then risk the existence of their nation with nuclear war when they are doing so much for it right now? But in any case, it is the West not Russia who are saying Putin will use tacticals anyway. US intelligence says that Russia have yet prepared them for use and Russia if you hear what they say have made it clear they will use all the options of their entire arsenal to reach their goals and given they have more options before tacticals, it should be obvious to everyone the use of them will be a last resort, not the premise.

All through history we can come up with what abouts. Every situation is different to a degree. So all using what abouts does is partially reflect on the present  situation, not act as an excuse for the present situation.
Yes there are political diplomatic wrangles , holding any number of hot beds from actually bursting into flame.
Putins problem is he has lit a fire, as against dancing around the makings of one.  He is going beyond the situations you want taken into account.
 He is intent on annexing the land he invaded , not just recognising it as sovereign.  None of those examples you give  have become part of the sovereignty of the US, the. U.K., or any one else.  He like some medieval monarch thinks he can increase the size of Russia. It's no secret now ,he proclaims it, loud and clear.
There is no nuclear option, outside of obliteration for all . Shame he even used the threat of it, no matter how those threats were  framed.

[Barry]

Personally, I am thinking of buying some Potassium Iodide tablets.

Make your peace with God. Much better for someone our age!

[B0ycey]

In so many words I have made your main point a number of times . Putins sanity has been in question throughout as well, he may not be mad, but then if Zelensky, can be considered mad, Putin cannot escape being seen in at least a similar light.
Only Putin chose to tell the world how he possessed the means to destroy those that oppose his designs, those means being multiple nuclear warheads delivered in a way not yet seen. That doesn't mean he is more than a gambler with possible criminal designs. To do it would be the act of a mad man. In fact to even think you can escalate toward that situation with the use of slightly less lethal nuclear weaponry has to be considered suspect.
His rational seems to be attack my country and this is what you get. So he nicks someone else's country and calls it his own, genius, lunacy, or straight forward extensive criminal mind. A power for good.
As it stands Putins  actions in Ukraine, are illegal in international law, the barbarous murder of countless Ukrainians is morally wrong and repugnant, and the mere threat of Armageddon ,if his actions are not accepted ,is the response of a criminal with his gun at your head . But he might not be mad. Is it really possible to insult him anyway.?

Kosovo isn't internationally recognised and legally Serbia. Doesn't stop the West recognising it. And how about Taiwan? Internationally and legally China, the West collectively sign up to the One China policy and yet still plays all sorts of inflammatory games trying to use ambiguity langauage in order to treat Taiwan as its own sovereign nation despite what they signed up to. The West screams UN and international law when it suits them and ditches the same charters when it doesn't. Do you want me to mention the illegal wars in the Middle East again?

As for Putin, all the actions he has taken so far is in regards to protecting his nation. Only you think NATO expansion on its borders isn't a security risk for them. And whether it is right or wrong about whether he should have invaded, he is right that Russian speakers in the Donbass were being persecuted in terms of their history and language and he is broadly right that the Donbass want to be part of Russia. So given all that, you can see clearly all his actions so far is in regard to the Motherland and not his vanity. Why would someone do so much for their nation and then risk the existence of their nation with nuclear war when they are doing so much for it right now? But in any case, it is the West not Russia who are saying Putin will use tacticals anyway. US intelligence says that Russia have yet prepared them for use and Russia if you hear what they say have made it clear they will use all the options of their entire arsenal to reach their goals and given they have more options before tacticals, it should be obvious to everyone the use of them will be a last resort, not the premise.

[cromwell]

When people talk of Russia they forget so much of it is sill a hangover from the Soviet Union a Union many don't want to be in and detest Russia much more than the snp does us .

So many different peoples in so many places where much of Russias mineral,oil and gas wealth lies and they feel used and abused by Putin and his ilk and are in no mood to fight for him.

[cromwell]

https://mobile.twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1577483753278083072

[Good old]

What's the point Pappy. Once one ballistic goes off, they all go off. Even if you survive the blasts, you won't live, certainly not in Europe given we share the continent with Russia and that is where we are firing due to nuclear fallout. And that is why I have no time for Good Olds posts that Putin is a "mad dog". He puts his nation above even his own life so nuclear holocaust isn't really something he'd do unless he is worried about the existence of his nation. And then we may have guardians of the skies anyway. We as primitive apes have no clue what we are doing when we split an atom. The damage may not just be material and something beyond our senses in any case.

In so many words I have made your main point a number of times . Putins sanity has been in question throughout as well, he may not be mad, but then if Zelensky, can be considered mad, Putin cannot escape being seen in at least a similar light.
Only Putin chose to tell the world how he possessed the means to destroy those that oppose his designs, those means being multiple nuclear warheads delivered in a way not yet seen. That doesn't mean he is more than a gambler with possible criminal designs. To do it would be the act of a mad man. In fact to even think you can escalate toward that situation with the use of slightly less lethal nuclear weaponry has to be considered suspect.
His rational seems to be attack my country and this is what you get. So he nicks someone else's country and calls it his own, genius, lunacy, or straight forward extensive criminal mind. A power for good. ?
As it stands Putins  actions in Ukraine, are illegal in international law, the barbarous murder of countless Ukrainians is morally wrong and repugnant, and the mere threat of Armageddon ,if his actions are not accepted ,is the response of a criminal with his gun at your head . But he might not be mad. Is it really possible to insult him anyway.?

[B0ycey]

Personally, I am thinking of buying some Potassium Iodide tablets.

What's the point Pappy. Once one ballistic goes off, they all go off. Even if you survive the blasts, you won't live, certainly not in Europe given we share the continent with Russia and that is where we are firing due to nuclear fallout. And that is why I have no time for Good Olds posts that Putin is a "mad dog". He puts his nation above even his own life so nuclear holocaust isn't really something he'd do unless he is worried about the existence of his nation. And then we may have guardians of the skies anyway. We as primitive apes have no clue what we are doing when we split an atom. The damage may not just be material and something beyond our senses in any case.

[Good old]

The use of a nuclear devise , in or bordering territory Putin claims to be saving the people of that area from a greater evil is ludicrous on all sorts of levels. The idea is only viable because we all know he isnt saving anyone, but bolstering Russian borders. The world can only hope it never happens, either in that immediate area, or in any other part of the Ukraine, because any  such action really could not be ignored.

[papasmurf]

My opinion is that tactical nuclear weapons are the very last resort Sheepy, not the premise. 

Personally, I am thinking of buying some Potassium Iodide tablets.

[B0ycey]

The point is stop talking nonsense and Boycey has a point it isn't past the point of no return depending on Vlad and what he does next.

My opinion is that tactical nuclear weapons are the very last resort Sheepy, not the premise. Putin has said he will use his entire arsenal to protect Russia and he has more tricks up his sleeve to use before then. It is the West who have made out he will use nukes anyway, Putin is more careful with his words. The closest we have got from confirmation nukes are even an option for Russia was from Medvedev, not Putin who was ambiguous to say say least when talking about them. I suspect Putin will enlist more people to fight to protect and fortify the line before such an action is contempted because it won't just be the West who condemn him for this. He will lose allies like China. And that isn't even mentioning that it isn't wise to use nukes so close to your own border given the nuclear fallout. And as I have said before, and I know people will laugh at this, but we have UFOs observing this crisis in Ukraine and if they are in Ukraine they are in Russia as well. I genuinely believe the nuclear option isn't an option at all and I think the Yanks and the Russians know it. That is why the Yanks are so bullish right now and Russia is making it clear the Yanks used them first when they can. Also when you look at the actual facts, the area the fighting is taken place isn't pro Keiv so I don't even know what we are doing here. The people of the Donbass should decide their own fate if we can't just abide by the Minsk agreement and we should be talking with Russia and sorting out a UN ran referendum if we are so sure that Ukraine are the liberators.