What is really happening in the Ukraine Conflict?

[patman post]

It definitely was no accident. It could in theory be a false flag in order to strike Ukraine more directly, but I doubt it. The fact that Zelensky didn't outright deny this means I would say it was them.

But even so, this doesn't actually directly answer the core of my post. Zelensky is having key infrastructure targeted when before he did not. What use is there to continue this when at the end you're going to be king of ashes? I read a tweet that Zelensky spoke to Scholz in order to finance rebuilding key infrastructure and will speak to the G7 later. I question the logic of that during war as even if you could repair it, it is now a target and like throwing good money away. I see no way out of this without talks for Ukraine unless they want to be in complete blackout very soon.

To my mind all options are open as to was responsible for the explosion.

As to talks between Russia and Ukraine, surely it takes two to do this — even with some arm twisting. And I cannot see Ukraine agreeing to conceded any territory recently invaded by Russia. 

In the image war, Russia is on the back foot. Even if its military is as good as Putin thought, his propaganda troops are losing out according to much of the world's news media. So that's a strong reason for Putin to get some action going...

[B0ycey]

I have a feeling the Ukrainians have always known What the  threat amounted to . It's the rest of us that can afford at the minute  to speculate. What the total threat is and how to deal with it.
What do Ukraine discuss with Putin. Complying with the turning of large areas of Ukraine into Russian sovereign territory?  Or if they don't talk now, maybe the discussion will have to be based around the development of a Ukraine run in a similar way to Vichy France, or a East German model?

What do you mean, 'What do they have to speak to Russia about?' How about if they are so sure they are the Liberators of the Donbass region, a UN led referendum and the people who live their decide their own fate with Russia retreating depending on the result? The answer is simple why they don't want to do that given the area has been in civil war for 8 years. And then there is the implementation of the Minsk agreement if they don't want that. The fact Russia has only attacked Kiev today when for months they have not means if it isn't obvious to you by now they are only interested in the Donbass, then you have been taken in by Western media.

[Sheepy]

But can we be absolutely certain the explosion on the bridge is the responsibility of the Ukrainians?

Even not, but it was an accident, it still reflects badly on the Russians, who already have so many misjudgements and events challenging their military reputation...

Happy Birthday Mr president, funny how nobody now wants the responsibility for it. 

[Good old]

It definitely was no accident. It could in theory be a false flag in order to strike Ukraine more directly, but I doubt it. The fact that Zelensky didn't outright deny this means I would say it was them.

But even so, this doesn't actually directly answer the core of my post. Zelensky is having key infrastructure targeted when before he did not. What use is there to continue this when at the end you're going to be king of ashes? I read a tweet that Zelensky spoke to Scholz in order to finance rebuilding key infrastructure and will speak to the G7 later. I question the logic of that during war as even if you could repair it, it is now a target and like throwing good money away. I see no way out of this without talks for Ukraine unless they want to be in complete blackout very soon.

I have a feeling the Ukrainians have always known What the  threat amounted to . It's the rest of us that can afford at the minute  to speculate. What the total threat is and how to deal with it.
What do Ukraine discuss with Putin. Complying with the turning of large areas of Ukraine into Russian sovereign territory?  Or if they don't talk now, maybe the discussion will have to be based around the development of a Ukraine run in a similar way to Vichy France, or a East German model?

[B0ycey]

But isn't/wasn't some increased Russian action overdue, following all the setbacks Putin's military being regularly reported by much of the world's news media?

Besides, other than Putin saying it was a terrorist attack by Ukraine, has anyone from Ukraine yet claimed responsibility, and would/should they be believed even if they did...?

There is the truck bomb theory in which they would have evidence by speaking to the owner or the drone under the bridge theory in which they would have drone wreckage evidence from their dive team. Either way, who else would do this unless it was a false flag? And it isn't up to Zelensky to say it was him anyway. You do not give your adversaries any clues in war.

As for this being overdue? Perhaps.  But it didn't need to be overdue if they both talked to each other. 

[patman post]

It definitely was no accident. It could in theory be a false flag in order to strike Ukraine more directly, but I doubt it. The fact that Zelensky didn't outright deny this means I would say it was them.

But even so, this doesn't actually directly answer the core of my post. Zelensky is having key infrastructure targeted when before he did not. What use is there to continue this when at the end you're going to be king of ashes? I read a tweet that Zelensky spoke to Scholz in order to finance rebuilding key infrastructure and will speak to the G7 later. I question the logic of that during war as even if you could repair it, it is now a target and like throwing good money away. I see no way out of this without talks for Ukraine unless they want to be in complete blackout very soon.

But isn't/wasn't some increased Russian action overdue, following all the setbacks Putin's military being regularly reported by much of the world's news media?

Besides, other than Putin saying it was a terrorist attack by Ukraine, has anyone from Ukraine yet claimed responsibility, and would/should they be believed even if they did...?

[Good old]

But can we be absolutely certain the explosion on the bridge is the responsibility of the Ukrainians?

Even not, but it was an accident, it still reflects badly on the Russians, who already have so many misjudgements and events challenging their military reputation...

Well Putin, himself isn't that sure who did it . A lot of credence given to Pro Russian activities in all of the annexed areas. Why not some patriotic Ukrainian resistance activity? Putin must have it Zelensky had his hand directly on this. It gives him more excuse to escalate as he does. Not always the case, and may not be so in this..The  shooting down of a Dutch airliner , in earlier times, was met with a loud ," not us", from Russia. Doubtful but who knows.

[B0ycey]

But can we be absolutely certain the explosion on the bridge is the responsibility of the Ukrainians?

Even not, but it was an accident, it still reflects badly on the Russians, who already have so many misjudgements and events challenging their military reputation...

It definitely was no accident. It could in theory be a false flag in order to strike Ukraine more directly, but I doubt it. The fact that Zelensky didn't outright deny this means I would say it was them. 

But even so, this doesn't actually directly answer the core of my post. Zelensky is having key infrastructure targeted when before he did not. What use is there to continue this when at the end you're going to be king of ashes? I read a tweet that Zelensky spoke to Scholz in order to finance rebuilding key infrastructure and will speak to the G7 later. I question the logic of that during war as even if you could repair it, it is now a target and like throwing good money away. I see no way out of this without talks for Ukraine unless they want to be in complete blackout very soon.

[patman post]

I'm beginning to think Zelensky needs a better advisor. If the net result of blowing up a bridge is Russia targeting key infrastructure in your own country, you have to question was it worth it? By and large, the war was being fought in the Donbass region. Keiv hadn't been attacked for months, and now we have this? Ukraine could be in a complete electrical blackout and I doubt Zelensky will push for talks. Pyrrhic comes to mind.

But can we be absolutely certain the explosion on the bridge is the responsibility of the Ukrainians? 

Even not, but it was an accident, it still reflects badly on the Russians, who already have so many misjudgements and events challenging their military reputation...

[B0ycey]

The Biden regime, is a particularly stupid one, but there you go, no friends in politics.

There was a time I thought the Americans were pulling the strings Sheepy. Now I just think they are exploiting the situation. Zelensky seems willing to fight until the last Ukrainian and I suspect the Yanks are more than happy for him to have a go. As I said months ago now, when the fighting is over, Zelensky is going to ask the West to rebuild his country and we will be in such a bad state due to the cost of living crisis, I doubt the West can afford to do much without electoral loses. Which means the longer the war goes on, the shitter state Ukraine will be in so I really do think he needs a better advisor to explain this to him. 

[Sheepy]

I'm beginning to think Zelensky needs a better advisor. If the net result of blowing up a bridge is Russia targeting key infrastructure in your own country, you have to question was it worth it? By and large, the war was being fought in the Donbass region. Keiv hadn't been attacked for months, and now we have this? Ukraine could be in a complete electrical blackout and I doubt Zelensky will push for talks. Pyrrhic comes to mind.

The Biden regime, is a particularly stupid one, but there you go, no friends in politics.

[B0ycey]

Allegedly there is a lot of high explosive going off today.

I'm beginning to think Zelensky needs a better advisor. If the net result of blowing up a bridge is Russia targeting key infrastructure in your own country, you have to question was it worth it? By and large, the war was being fought in the Donbass region. Keiv hadn't been attacked for months, and now we have this? Ukraine could be in a complete electrical blackout and I doubt Zelensky will push for talks. Pyrrhic comes to mind.

[Sheepy]

In other words an airborne delivered explosion. (It would need to be big drone to deliver a tonne of HE.) However such drones do exist.

Allegedly there is a lot of high explosive going off today. 

[papasmurf]

A more plausible explanation, he said, is a massive explosion below the bridge - probably delivered using some kind of clandestine maritime drone.

In other words an airborne delivered explosion. (It would need to be big drone to deliver a tonne of HE.) However such drones do exist.

[Nick]

If only this former British army explosives expert knew what he was talking about 🙄 


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63195504

"I've seen plenty of large vehicle-borne IEDs [improvised explosive devices] in my time," a former British army explosives expert told me. "This does not look like one."

A more plausible explanation, he said, is a massive explosion below the bridge - probably delivered using some kind of clandestine maritime drone.