What is really happening in the Ukraine Conflict?

[Borg Refinery]

Well, I'm going to pretend to be Nick for a moment, and ask for your proof that Russia invaded "under imperial pretexts".  🤔

So you think Ukraine invading Russia is justified to make Russia leave them alone?  Ok, so how about Russia knew Ukraine was going to become part of an expanded NATO / EU, so invaded to get Ukraine to leave them alone?  This is a neutral position, without hypocrisy.

If someone attacked England, under exactly the same circumstances, then I would be against invading or bombing them.  I would want us to surrender, so we could get the puppet government removed.

You don't even appear to believe that Russia actually even declared they were invading Ukraine.

Is there any point arguing against that?

What next? Are you going to argue water isn't wet??

[Borg Refinery]

So the gist of all the above is that attacking and occupying other countries is the sole prerogative of the west 

[Sampanviking]

Well if someone like Russia invaded England and there was a surrender don't think you'll be able to carry on commenting on a forum as you do know.

You'll end up poisoned falling out of a window  or some other unfortunate occurrence which will end up with being dead.

Considering that the UK is now locking people up on the basis of Social Media posts of which the Government disapproves, I would say that is a very rich accusation, but then so is the whole "look they just invaded somebody" thing. 
Sooner or later people will realise that the old chestnut cry of "never mind how bad it is here, just think about how much worse it is everywhere else" is the crock o shite that it really is. By then we really will be the third world, with the rest of the world gone on into the future without us.
But this is an off topic digression...

[cromwell]

Well, I'm going to pretend to be Nick for a moment, and ask for your proof that Russia invaded "under imperial pretexts".  🤔

So you think Ukraine invading Russia is justified to make Russia leave them alone?  Ok, so how about Russia knew Ukraine was going to become part of an expanded NATO / EU, so invaded to get Ukraine to leave them alone?  This is a neutral position, without hypocrisy.

If someone attacked England, under exactly the same circumstances, then I would be against invading or bombing them.  I would want us to surrender, so we could get the puppet government removed.

Well if someone like Russia invaded England and there was a surrender don't think you'll be able to carry on commenting on a forum as you do know.

You'll end up poisoned falling out of a window  or some other unfortunate occurrence which will end up with being dead.

[Nick]

Did they declare it?  Proof please.

Do they need to declare it? There is satellite footage of them invading 🤦 

[Barry]

Germany announced today they are ceasing funding for weapons for Ukraine. The reason given is their own budgetary crisis, but it comes very soon after the announcement that it was Ukraine responsible for the Nordstream underwater bombing.
https://www.politico.eu/article/german-authorities-obtain-first-arrest-warrant-ukraine-nord-stream-bombing/
The gas line provided Germany with Russian gas and the bombing caused an energy crisis in Germany.

[Scott777]

So the gist of all the above is that attacking and occupying other countries is the sole prerogative of the west who are exceptional on account of their moral superiority and the rest of the world has the right to do nothing other than bend the knee.

That sums it up.  It's odd how Keir Starmtrooper isn't bending the knee for Russia, given that Russia compared to NATO is a minority group.  🤣

[Scott777]

Come on Scott, Russia invaded first under imperial pretexts and Ukraine's "invasion" into Russia is a response to that, to get Russia to leave them alone. You really don't see the difference during the middle of a war?

If someone attacked England first, would you be against invading their country to bomb the people doing it? How else are you going to stop them then?

Well, I'm going to pretend to be Nick for a moment, and ask for your proof that Russia invaded "under imperial pretexts".  🤔

So you think Ukraine invading Russia is justified to make Russia leave them alone?  Ok, so how about Russia knew Ukraine was going to become part of an expanded NATO / EU, so invaded to get Ukraine to leave them alone?  This is a neutral position, without hypocrisy.

If someone attacked England, under exactly the same circumstances, then I would be against invading or bombing them.  I would want us to surrender, so we could get the puppet government removed.

[Scott777]

They took a portion of another country during an invasion. If that's not declaring war I don't know what is.

Did they declare it?  Proof please.

[Sampanviking]

So the gist of all the above is that attacking and occupying other countries is the sole prerogative of the west who are exceptional on account of their moral superiority and the rest of the world has the right to do nothing other than bend the knee.

With a mindset like that, how could anything possibly go wrong.......

So Borg thinks that the F16 is a game changer? Were we not told that about TOW missiles, Behrakter Drones, M777 Howitzers, Himars RA, Leopard MBT's Bradley MICV's Abrahms MBT's Challanger MBT's Patriot AD etc etc. None of the above changed anything and all have been destroyed in significant numbers. What could possibly make you believe that some aircraft first built 50 years ago will make any difference more than any of the previous "Game Changers" the Ukraine has been given.??

The Ukrainian Airforce has reported the death of a Pilot in combat over the Kursk front who was listed as part of a F16 formation, so presumably the first F16 has already been shot down.

I just find the level of delusion in the Wests perception and presentation of the War, off the scale. The presentation of the Kursk incursion is a classic case in point.

Lets be clear, if the Ukrainians were holding their own or even pushing the Russians back on most other fronts and had been produced a new, fresh battle group to open the Kursk Salient, they may have had a point. Nothing however, could be further from the truth.

The Russians are advancing on virtually all the other major fronts; slowly in places like Kupiansk and rapidly in places like Povrosk and the  Niu York, Torests conurbation.

In order to open the Kursk salient, the Ukrainians have had to transfer elite forces from such fronts, thus resulting in the Russian advance going even faster.

So what exactly is the Ukraine's Strategic Goal in this new front? If it was to capture the Kursk NPP, that opportunity has closed its door and closed very soon after the operation started. Given that it was the only obvious strategic target in the area, it was the first thing to be secured by the Russians.

If the hope was to panic the Russians to deploy its best forces from the Donetsk fronts to quickly contain the outbreak and to cause the Donetsk fronts to lose all the momentum they have gathered over this last year, then this has failed dismally as this has not happened. The Russians have made use of the conscript forces that were legally prohibited from taking part in the SMO, plus elements of the reserves that had not been previously committed to any part of the fighting.

Not surprisingly the Ukrainian advance is now being contained and highly unlikely to grow except along some vulnerable border areas to the West of the present front line. Many of the claimed villages being captured are little more than a Farm with a few workers cottages and the biggest capture a small market town of no more than 6000 inhabitants. With the most of the territory captured being Potato Fields!
To my mind this is a poor swap for the Industrial Heartlands being captured by the Russians in the Donbass.

This I guess is what you get though, when Media Image and Perception is given more importance than the raw reality of a situation.

There has been one big casualty of all this of course, all the talks of Peace Negotiations have gone out the window. Russia will take nothing less than unconditional surrender now.

[Borg Refinery]

Not so much clearing it up, as complicating it, to be honest.  Is the Ukraine invasion of Russia not imperialism?  Zelensky acts in service of the US, so this is really NATO / US expansion.  Otherwise, why do it?

Then you say Russia invaded first, which is a red line.  And I say, the US, using the CIA, changed the regime in Ukraine first, which should be a red line.

Come on Scott, Russia invaded first under imperial pretexts and Ukraine's "invasion" into Russia is a response to that, to get Russia to leave them alone. You really don't see the difference during the middle of a war?

If someone attacked England first, would you be against invading their country to bomb the people doing it? How else are you going to stop them then?

[Nick]

Oh, you want proof?  I don't have any.  Now it's your turn.  Where is your proof Russia declared war on Ukraine?

They took a portion of another country during an invasion. If that's not declaring war I don't know what is. 

[Scott777]

Where is your proof about the CIA? Even if it was the CIA that has nothing to do with Russia and does not make Ukraine the aggressor as you stated. So what made Ukraine the aggressor in this war?

Russia declared war on Ukraine, they can do what the hell they want from that point on, personally I'd love to see a cruise missile land right on the Kremlin.

Oh, you want proof?  I don't have any.  Now it's your turn.  Where is your proof Russia declared war on Ukraine?

[Scott777]

Just more conspiracy rubbish about Ukraine blowing the pipeline. Are you going to link to this proof?

I suppose, using the full force of hypocrisy, you're going to pretend the media never promoted the conspiracy theory about Russia doing it.  😁

[Scott777]

That's a reasonable take, but I'd say whether both are to blame or not, one side invaded the other and crossed a certain red line, imperialism is imperialism and I am against it whoever does it. If Ukraine invaded Russia and started blowing stuff up first, then I'd want Ukraine driven out of Russia instead, so I hope that clears up any misunderstanding on our part

Not so much clearing it up, as complicating it, to be honest.  Is the Ukraine invasion of Russia not imperialism?  Zelensky acts in service of the US, so this is really NATO / US expansion.  Otherwise, why do it?

Then you say Russia invaded first, which is a red line.  And I say, the US, using the CIA, changed the regime in Ukraine first, which should be a red line.