What is really happening in the Ukraine Conflict?

[BeElBeeBub]

Opposition that really upsets government in Britain just "commit suicide" in questionable circumstances. Being found hung in their garage surrounded by child pornography and dressed in women's clothing  being just one example. (Don't bother to ask.)

I am genuinely intrigued as to which opposition politician you are talking about here. 

[papasmurf]

Lennon has been jailed for breaking the law, as was Assange. Opposition in Russia disappear because they are opposition to Putin, a big difference.

Opposition that really upsets government in Britain just "commit suicide" in questionable circumstances. Being found hung in their garage surrounded by child pornography and dressed in women's clothing  being just one example. (Don't bother to ask.)

[Scott777]

"We should be neutral" is taking Russia's side.

If everyone stood aside as a "neutral" then Russian would win.

No, you donut, funding and arming Russia would be taking Russia's side.  The US was officially neutral for 2 years in WWII.  So, did they takes sides with the Nazis?  Duh, FFS.

We don't have a ploce state and nobody is fast tracked to prison. Everyone has a trial, the right to defence and appeal.

Seriously, what a donut.  The police took orders from the government to arrest protesters during Covid.  And this:

"Djanogly praised staff across the justice system who are working around the clock to fast-track hearings of people charged over the riots."

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/riots-minister-praises-work-to-fast-track-court-cases

When was the last time a UK opposition politician was jailed? When was the last time one fell out of a window?

"They were both sentenced to prison, with 9 months for Fransen and 18 weeks for Golding."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Golding#2018_conviction

When was the last time a Russian opposition politician impaled himself on a halberd?  Ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer.

[BeElBeeBub]

No it's not ok to starve anyone into conscription or to threaten someone with prison.  I don't think it works without some threat, does it?

Political opposition in the UK does not usually need to be disappeared.  Activists can be put in prison, like Tommy Robinson, or Julian Assange.  The method of preventing politicians from becoming a threat to the UK state: use propaganda to create a bogeyman, stop their funding, use corrupt police and courts to persecute them.  That's why we have no political opposition.

Ah, "tommy robinson" political martyr, truly the British Navalny. Imprisoned for his political activities.

Like in 2005, for assault (girlfriend) - oddly before he was a political figure. 

Or 2011 - for football violence. 

Or. 2012, hilariously for an immigration offense (false passport) 

Or again for. Mortgage fraud. 

All before he was. a political figure. Very far sighted of the deep state. 

And Assange - he wasn't imprisoned - he was out on bail awaiting extradition to Sweden, which he fought on the groin ds that it was a pretext to extradite him to the US. Rather forgetting the fact the US could easily extradite him directly. He then imprisoned himself by jumping bail. So it was inevitable he would be jailed for that when he eventually surrendered. And then, just to give lie to his earlier argument the US requested extradition. Of course, whilst all this grinds through the courts (and for the record I am against his extradition to the US)he can't really be put on bail given his last conduct. 

[Nick]

No it's not ok to starve anyone into conscription or to threaten someone with prison.  I don't think it works without some threat, does it?

Political opposition in the UK does not usually need to be disappeared.  Activists can be put in prison, like Tommy Robinson, or Julian Assange.  The method of preventing politicians from becoming a threat to the UK state: use propaganda to create a bogeyman, stop their funding, use corrupt police and courts to persecute them.  That's why we have no political opposition.

Lennon has been jailed for breaking the law, as was Assange. Opposition in Russia disappear because they are opposition to Putin, a big difference. 

[Scott777]

So that makes it ok to starve families into conscription?
Also, not heard of any political opposition in the U.K. disappearing or getting necked.

No it's not ok to starve anyone into conscription or to threaten someone with prison.  I don't think it works without some threat, does it?

Political opposition in the UK does not usually need to be disappeared.  Activists can be put in prison, like Tommy Robinson, or Julian Assange.  The method of preventing politicians from becoming a threat to the UK state: use propaganda to create a bogeyman, stop their funding, use corrupt police and courts to persecute them.  That's why we have no political opposition.

[BeElBeeBub]

A quick question here for some of the Russia leaning (and by that I mean those who say we shouldn't back Ukraine for various reasons) 

Given the news that a bunch of right wing commentators on YT have been funded (knowingly or unkowingly) by Russia 

https://www.google.com/search?q=indictment+tenet&oq=indictment+tenet

and that the talking points of many of these influencers project coincide with some of the arguments raised here. 

What are their (the forum posters) thoughts? 

"Never heard of them, I do my own research!" 

"It's the deep state stitching up those brave enough to tell the truth" 

"hummm it's odd that my view coincides with views Russia is prepared to fund" 

[BeElBeeBub]

Don't put words in my mouth that's not what I was saying at all
Blair playing cowboys and Indians with Bush resulted in the rapid rise of IS,misery for tens of thousands probably more Iraqis and others, massive instability in the Middle East and the pathetic Arab spring a desperate attempt to push our values on another culture.


Add to that the dead and maimed military of ours that lost out whilst that grinning bastard Blair made millions and the massive increase in Islamic terrorism so please don't be minimising what that pair did compared to Putin.

You said "if you look at what Blair and bush did they are as criminal as Putin". I would interpret that as you considering B&B's actions as being on a par with Putins actions. Incorrect?

Now, I don't disagree with alot of the second part of your post. Iraq and Afghanistan were terrible mistakes and put world would probably be better if they hadn't happened.

But the key factor here is *regaedless* of the outcome of B&Bs actions the motivations were different.  Even past that B&B are no longer in power. The decision to back Ukr is being made by different people in the west vs the same person in Russia. 

Is you argument that Gulf War 2 means the west has no moral grounds for supporting Ukraine against Russia? 

Quick note on the Arab Spring, whilst it's true the west was generally cheering on the various revolutions it didn't get involved physically. Putin however did - his direct military support of Assad was vital to preventing his fall and thus set the stage for a long grinding civil war filled with atrocities committed by the side Putin actively backs.

[papasmurf]

From my mate.


https://www.gazeta.ru/army/2024/07/31/19483819.shtml

https://dzen.ru/a/ZqoX-iMaR2Fxxr7n

Interesting links. (Auto Translate as usual worked well.) If anyone want to do some calculations:- 1 Russian Ruble equals 0.0086 Pound sterling

[Nick]

Erm.....

Income Tax rates are not exactly State Secrets, you cannot hide them.

You however are asking me to discount any published (and presumably researched and verified) information, in favour of totally unverifiable sources that you claim are Russian that you know.

So tell me, are any of these Russians with us in this forum right now?

Personally I suspect that if such a tax hike of the sort you allege was foisted onto the Russian people. the Western media would be trumpting it loud and clear form every roof top. The lack of such clamour is deafening.

From my mate. 


https://www.gazeta.ru/army/2024/07/31/19483819.shtml

https://dzen.ru/a/ZqoX-iMaR2Fxxr7n

[Nick]

Erm.....

Income Tax rates are not exactly State Secrets, you cannot hide them.

You however are asking me to discount any published (and presumably researched and verified) information, in favour of totally unverifiable sources that you claim are Russian that you know.

So tell me, are any of these Russians with us in this forum right now?

Personally I suspect that if such a tax hike of the sort you allege was foisted onto the Russian people. the Western media would be trumpting it loud and clear form every roof top. The lack of such clamour is deafening.

Income tax has gone from a flat rate of 13% to a sliding scale up to 22%. If you're in the 22% bracket that is a massive hike, 9% of your salary gone over night. And seeing that sanctions have already increased the cost of living massively it is an incentive to
join up, which is Putins intention. 

[Nick]

Erm.....

Income Tax rates are not exactly State Secrets, you cannot hide them.

You however are asking me to discount any published (and presumably researched and verified) information, in favour of totally unverifiable sources that you claim are Russian that you know.

So tell me, are any of these Russians with us in this forum right now?

Personally I suspect that if such a tax hike of the sort you allege was foisted onto the Russian people. the Western media would be trumpting it loud and clear form every roof top. The lack of such clamour is deafening.

I note that you haven't answered my question. 

[Sampanviking]

I have WhatsApp'd my friend, he will send me
proof.
Where do these western based financial companies get their information from? Do you think it might be from Russia? The country that couldn't lie straight in bed?

Here's a question for you, what exchange rate will I get to the USD when I'm in Russia?

Erm.....

Income Tax rates are not exactly State Secrets, you cannot hide them.

You however are asking me to discount any published (and presumably researched and verified) information, in favour of totally unverifiable sources that you claim are Russian that you know.

So tell me, are any of these Russians with us in this forum right now?

Personally I suspect that if such a tax hike of the sort you allege was foisted onto the Russian people. the Western media would be trumpting it loud and clear form every roof top. The lack of such clamour is deafening.

[Nick]

Err no - it comes from Western based Financial Analysts and planners. Tax levels are Internationally published Statistics for all countries.

If you have hard evidence to support your assertion please feel free to share.

I have WhatsApp'd my friend, he will send me
proof. 
Where do these western based financial companies get their information from? Do you think it might be from Russia? The country that couldn't lie straight in bed? 

Here's a question for you, what exchange rate will I get to the USD when I'm in Russia?

[Sampanviking]

And there lies your problem, everything you think you know about Russia comes from the Russian media which is controlled by the Kremlin. I've been there and have experienced it, I also have friends there that are telling me Income Tax has been doubled. I know who I believe.

Err no - it comes from Western based Financial Analysts and planners. Tax levels are Internationally published Statistics for all countries.

If you have hard evidence to support your assertion please feel free to share.