What is really happening in the Ukraine Conflict?

[Unlucky4Sum]

Maybe you forget what you posted in response to a link about Russians shooting prisoners.  Lets remind you:

Both sides have killed and even tortured POWs in this war

[Borg Refinery]

Not at all.  You were the one trying to infer this video of Russians shooting unarmed prisoners was nothing to be concerned about.

Even for you that is a new low, outright lying that I'm defending Russians shooting unarmed prisoners. I'm suggesting both sides have engaged in war crimes, how does that infer that it's "nothing to be concerned about"?

This is why people find debating you so tedious, as you are so dishonest

[Unlucky4Sum]

Well that makes it ok then

Not at all.  You were the one trying to infer this video of Russians shooting unarmed prisoners was nothing to be concerned about.

[Borg Refinery]

Ukraine is using weapons on Military targets, not civilians like Russia is.

Many civilians have died due to indiscriminate bombing according to HRW

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/07/06/ukraine-civilian-deaths-cluster-munitions

(Kyiv, July 6, 2023) – Ukrainian forces have used cluster munitions that caused numerous deaths and serious injuries to civilians, Human Rights Watch said today. Russian forces have extensively used cluster munitions in Ukraine, killing many civilians and causing other serious civilian harm.

New Human Rights Watch research found that Ukrainian cluster munition rocket attacks on Russian-controlled areas in and around the city of Izium in eastern Ukraine during 2022 caused many casualties among Ukrainian civilians. Both countries should stop using these inherently indiscriminate weapons, and no country should supply cluster munitions because of their foreseeable danger to civilians.

"Cluster munitions used by Russia and Ukraine are killing civilians now and will continue to do so for many years," said Mary Wareham, acting arms director at Human Rights Watch. "Both sides should immediately stop using them and not try to get more of these indiscriminate weapons."

The US government is reportedly close to deciding whether to transfer stockpiled cluster munitions to Ukraine, which would require approval by President Joe Biden. Transferring these weapons would inevitably cause long-term suffering for civilians and undermine the international opprobrium of their use, Human Rights Watch said.

[Nick]

Um, Ukraine is using thermite right now, despite widespread calls not to

Ukraine has also used prisoner conscripts to fight their war, including men convicted of terrible crimes. You are just defending the indefensible again and blaming everyone else for being a Putin pawn

Well I'm sure you will defend it if Ukraine does it, right? Just like you defended Stepan Bandera and Nazi war criminals over there

I'm not sure how you have any right to criticise him

Ukraine is using weapons on Military targets, not civilians like Russia is. 

[Nick]

No, Nick, that was never the point of our discussion.  You said "NATO has expanded because countries joined voluntarily", so we began debating whether Ukraine was voluntary in moving towards joining NATO, and whether other countries did so voluntarily.  We were not debating whether NATO forced them.  That's a separate point.  So, given that the revolution changed the state of Ukraine from being neutral to pro-EU and pro-NATO, then it was forced by revolutionaries.

We can also discuss who was behind the revolution, but stop changing the debate.

You categorically stated that the incumbent Ukraine government was installed by third party NATO interference, you need to qualify that statement. 

[Borg Refinery]

And let's not forget the Russians have used cluster bombs, thernobarics and phosphorus in predominantly civilian areas.

Um, Ukraine is using thermite right now, despite widespread calls not to

Ukraine has also used prisoner conscripts to fight their war, including men convicted of terrible crimes. You are just defending the indefensible again and blaming everyone else for being a Putin pawn

They have also used cluster munitions too and killed civilians with it according to Human Rights Watch, but why let facts get in the way of a good rant?

I'm sure Scott will will be along shortly to explain to us how it's actually Ukraine's fault Russia has had to use cluster munitions in civilian areas because they didn't surrender immediately.

The diplomatic equivilent of "it's her fault, she knows how I like my steak"

Well I'm sure you will defend it if Ukraine does it, just like you defended Stepan Bandera and Nazi war criminals over there.

I'm not sure how you have any right to criticise him. Anyone who defends Nazi war criminal terrorists and infers they are heroes and concludes they are just nationalist/patriots can, in my book, have their opinions on the entire conflict discounted

[Borg Refinery]

Only one side has done it over and over and over

Well that makes it ok then

[Borg Refinery]

Agreed, to the first.  I've seen no evidence of Russian imperialism.  Did Russia install any pro Russian puppet?  I don't know, but I've seen no evidence.  Yanukovich, for example, was not pro Russian, he was neutral.

Yanukovich was not "neutral" at all, he was initially leaning towards the EU then turned towards Russia because of t. Your idea of neutral is starting to look very questionable which makes me ask more questions of your own 'neutrality'.

They tried in 2014:

Prior Russian election interference in Ukraine

The May 2014 Ukrainian presidential election was disrupted by cyberattacks over several days, including the release of hacked emails, attempted alteration of vote tallies, and distributed denial-of-service attacks to delay the final result. They were found to have been launched by pro-Russian hackers.[13][14] Malware that would have displayed a graphic declaring far-right candidate Dmytro Yarosh the electoral winner was removed from Ukraine's Central Election Commission less than an hour before polls closed. Despite this, Channel One Russia falsely reported that Yarosh had won, broadcasting the same fake graphic that had been planted on the election commission's website.[13][15] Political scientist Peter Ordeshook said in 2017, "These faked results were geared for a specific audience in order to feed the Russian narrative that has claimed from the start that ultra-nationalists and Nazis were behind the revolution in Ukraine."[13] The same Sofacy malware used in the Central Election Commission hack was later found on the servers of the Democratic National Committee (DNC).[15] Around the same time as Russia's attempt to hack the 2014 elections, the Obama administration received a report suggesting that the Kremlin was building a disinformation program which could be used to interfere in Western politics.[14]

Your one-sided view that West = bad, Russia = good (or "neutral") is starting to look suspiciously like the reverse image of the liberals on here - West = Good, Russia = Bad. It's no different.

[Scott777]

As I have explained, and you ignored, whilst US policy was neutrality until the officially declared war in 1942,  the US began supporting Britain in 1940 with arms shipments and financing.

Britain declare war in Sept 1939 but until May 1940 no real warefre took place ktgr phoney war) US assistance started a few months after that.  So saying the USA was neutral is disingenuous. They were assisting Britain from pretty much the start.

Try to make some sense.  So the US only assisted a few months after May 1940, and at the same time, they assisted Britain from the start.  Please explain what "from the start" means to you.  If it means Sept 1939, then you haven't said what they did for the first year after Poland was invaded.

[Scott777]

But you just swerve and go off on name calling. You are a terrible debate,

Yes, name-calling, because you taught me everything I know.  Although I haven't yet mastered the forked tongue.  🤣

Conscriotion came up in the comtext of a war with Russia you donut.

[BeElBeeBub]

Only one side has done it over and over and over

And let's not forget the Russians have used cluster bombs, thernobarics and phosphorus in predominantly civilian areas.

I'm sure Scott will will be along shortly to explain to us how it's actually Ukraine's fault Russia has had to use cluster munitions in civilian areas because they didn't surrender immediately.

The diplomatic equivilent of "it's her fault, she knows how I like my steak" 

[Unlucky4Sum]

Both sides have killed and even tortured POWs in this war

Only one side has done it over and over and over 

[BeElBeeBub]

Re US neutrality during WW2. 

As I have explained, and you ignored, whilst US policy was neutrality until the officially declared war in 1942,   the US began supporting Britain in 1940 with arms shipments and financing. 

Britain declare war in Sept 1939 but until May 1940 no real warefre took place ktgr phoney war) US assistance started a few months after that.  So saying the USA was neutral is disingenuous. They were assisting Britain from pretty much the start. 

However, there was a faction of the US who wanted strict neutrality ie to stop weapons and assistance to Britain. They were aligned with the NAZI party.

[BeElBeeBub]

It is not civilised, respectable or honest when you debate.  No further discussion with the serpent until it admits when it is wrong.

WTF

I pointed out some verifiable opensource facts (the relative military strengths of UKR and Runs prior to the war) and asked if you thought it was credible the nuclear armed superpower Russia felt threatened by Ukraine.

But you just swerve and go off on name calling. You are a terrible debate, you provide no facts, no insight and no arguments. You just spew some garbage and then resort to name calling.