What is really happening in the Ukraine Conflict?

[Sheepy]

I will give you a little nugget of the Russians doing irony and it going right over American heads, it was spread the Russians captured an American General guilty of leading the Azov battalion, think on it.

[B0ycey]

OK I'll ask the question again how do you know there were war crimes then,also you told me the other day that the places hit by missile?artillery rounds were storing weapons,also that the Russians are going out of there way not to target civilians yet the towns retaken have block after block of flats virtual rubble,so who did that? so again how do you know all those things?

I know all that because I do research Cromwell. I never said you can't trust the media, I only said it is biased and gives you half the story. Most of the sources I read are Western anyway. Some of the best sources are independent investigators. And sometimes the BBC will throw in a nugget of truth to try and seem impartial. I quite liked the one I read this morning when the BBC was asking people who were evacuating Donbass who they blamed for the conflict and most said Zelensky. So what does that say about the fighting right now. Russia are only in the East and that is mostly pro Russian. So who exactly is Ukraine liberating right now?

[cromwell]

I never say you can't trust what you are told. I said you are only given the narrative of the author and you need to do your own research. Like with most disagreement and conflict in life, there isn't one side to this story. There is a number of things that are equal in relevance and the more you understand both sides, the quicker you can make a judgement and see reasoning for what is happening.

OK I'll ask the question again how do you know there were war crimes then,also you told me the other day that the places hit by missile?artillery rounds were storing weapons,also that the Russians are going out of there way not to target civilians yet the towns retaken have block after block of flats virtual rubble,so who did that? so again how do you know all those things?

[B0ycey]

How do you know if you can't trust what you were told?

I never say you can't trust what you are told. I said you are only given the narrative of the author and you need to do your own research. Like with most disagreement and conflict in life, there isn't one side to this story. There is a number of things that are equal in relevance and the more you understand both sides, the quicker you can make a judgement and see reasoning for what is happening.

[cromwell]

What a f**king drone you are. Saddam Hussain did every single f**king thing asked of him to prove he didn't have Weapons of Mass destruction. The UN was invited by Iraq on the request of America to his military warehouses, and when they came up with nothing he was then asked by America where he was hiding his weapons in which he responded by saying he didn't have any. The Americans then tried to get UN support for their illegal war. That failed, they invaded anyway and then we found out he was telling the truth after all. Right or wrong, Russia are not lying in anything they have said in regards to why they invaded. Nazis are in the Ukrainian army, NATO did promise not to expand East after the fall of the Soviet Union, Ukraine had not fulfilled the Minsk agreement in its entirety, Donbass is indeed pro Russian, Ukraine is trying to phase out the Russian language, Crimea voted to break away from Ukraine and there were war crimes committed against Russian speakers in Donbass in 2014. I don't think either war is justifiable without exhausting diplomatic channels first. But when the facts are laid out the Ukraine conflict has more justification to it than Iraq ever did.

How do you know if you can't trust what you were told?

[B0ycey]

https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/syul6y/ukraine_ussr_break_away_vote_1991/



If being able to embrace many of Blair's policies makes me a Blairite, then only in part.  I did not and still do not think invading Iraq, was fully justified. So Blairite maybe, supporter of the war in Iraq, no.
Even if we should compare that conflict to the one Russia, presently conducts. They are not in anyway identical.
Ukraine and it's government have done nothing to compare with , what SH, had been guilty of , in conducting largely unprovoked war on his neighbours and his own people.
Blair, has never been indicted of war crimes. I and the millions that ever gave Blair their vote certainly have not.
Would you say all Russians , are responsible for this unprovoked, un-needed interference in what was a civil war, now turned instead into the rape of a sovereign state?
I have given a source for the situation in just 1991. If most of the fighting was being done by the DPRand LPR, what the hell were the 150,000 plus strong invasion force doing.? And have been doing ? Who has expended a large amount of rocketry levelling various districts to the ground?
Putin has f—ked up , no one had to pour fuel on the situation , it was clear Putins attitude was ,"give or else," and was always going to do this unless the Ukrainians capitulated , the Ukrainians , would have fought him in any case, but he has miscalculated big time and quiet honestly for a six week confrontation, his loses are alarming . No one is going to actually in win this now, the damage is done.
The west doesn't have to guess any more , he is a dangerous problem for world peace. He has rubber stamped the need for NATO. And even if he takes a slice of what is Ukraine, it will be at huge cost in life limb, and equipment .
Only to have that factor constantly contested.

What a f**king drone you are. Saddam Hussain did every single f**king thing asked of him to prove he didn't have Weapons of Mass destruction. The UN was invited by Iraq on the request of America to his military warehouses, and when they came up with nothing he was then asked by America where he was hiding his weapons in which he responded by saying he didn't have any. The Americans then tried to get UN support for their illegal war. That failed, they invaded anyway and then we found out he was telling the truth after all. Right or wrong, Russia are not lying in anything they have said in regards to why they invaded. Nazis are in the Ukrainian army, NATO did promise not to expand East after the fall of the Soviet Union, Ukraine had not fulfilled the Minsk agreement in its entirety, Donbass is indeed pro Russian, Ukraine is trying to phase out the Russian language, Crimea voted to break away from Ukraine and there were war crimes committed against Russian speakers in Donbass in 2014. I don't think either war is justifiable without exhausting diplomatic channels first. But when the facts are laid out the Ukraine conflict has more justification to it than Iraq ever did.

[Good old]

This from a fecking Blairite
Better go hand yourself into the Hauge in that case
East and South of what is currently called Ukraine is Russian territory, filled with ethnic Russians that have showed on three occasions; when given the opportunity, that they want to be part of Russia again. This is why there has been a war here for the last eight years. It could have been sorted out peacefully, but clearly the US had no desire for such an outcome and even now, rather than put the fire out, they are pouring on as much fuel as they can find.
Most of the hard fighting is being done by the militia of the DPR and LPR, people born and raised in territory labelled as Ukraine....
Its a civil war that is rapidly becoming a sectarian war.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/syul6y/ukraine_ussr_break_away_vote_1991/



If being able to embrace many of Blair's policies makes me a Blairite, then only in part.  I did not and still do not think invading Iraq, was fully justified. So Blairite maybe, supporter of the war in Iraq, no.
Even if we should compare that conflict to the one Russia, presently conducts. They are not in anyway identical.
Ukraine and it's government have done nothing to compare with , what SH, had been guilty of , in conducting largely unprovoked war on his neighbours and his own people.
Blair, has never been indicted of war crimes. I and the millions that ever gave Blair their vote certainly have not.
Would you say all Russians , are responsible for this unprovoked, un-needed interference in what was a civil war, now turned instead into the rape of a sovereign state?
I have given a source for the situation in just 1991. If most of the fighting was being done by the DPRand LPR, what the hell were the 150,000 plus strong invasion force doing.? And have been doing ? Who has expended a large amount of rocketry levelling various districts to the ground?
Putin has f—ked up , no one had to pour fuel on the situation , it was clear Putins attitude was ,"give or else," and was always going to do this unless the Ukrainians capitulated , the Ukrainians , would have fought him in any case, but he has miscalculated big time and quiet honestly for a six week confrontation, his loses are alarming . No one is going to actually in win this now, the damage is done. 
The west doesn't have to guess any more , he is a dangerous problem for world peace. He has rubber stamped the need for NATO. And even if he takes a slice of what is Ukraine, it will be at huge cost in life limb, and equipment .
Only to have that factor constantly contested.

[Sampanviking]

 

Allied to one or two you have made in previous posts , the various points and comparisons you make are how it is.
Outside of the damage already done in Donbas, not one of the numerous areas of massive destruction done to Ukrainian city's,  or any of the mass of civilian dead , would have occurred if Putin had not entered Ukraine , and proceeded to inflict both . Ukraine, has not touched Russian territory, Russia, is decimating Ukrainian territory and its population, no matter what language they use, no matter ethnic factors.
No comparison to history makes it right. No comparison to others indiscretions makes it right. And no denial of its criminality and severity will ever make it right.

This from a fecking Blairite
Better go hand yourself into the Hauge in that case
East and South of what is currently called Ukraine is Russian territory, filled with ethnic Russians that have showed on three occasions; when given the opportunity, that they want to be part of Russia again. This is why there has been a war here for the last eight years. It could have been sorted out peacefully, but clearly the US had no desire for such an outcome and even now, rather than put the fire out, they are pouring on as much fuel as they can find.
Most of the hard fighting is being done by the militia of the DPR and LPR, people born and raised in territory labelled as Ukraine....
Its a civil war that is rapidly becoming a sectarian war.

[Scott777]

I am assuming that this is true and if it is I almost give a sigh of relief. I just want the terror to stop 

I'm not sure if tanks stop terror.  They have a funny habit of causing terror, being quite big and heavy and quite noisy when they go BANG.

[Good old]

The problem we have here as illustrated in another thread is one of belief.

Do I believe some civilians have been tortured and murdered by the Russians ?  I certainly do,do I believe that all ukranians are the epitome of sweetness and light and have never committed an atrocity?no I don't.

Again do I believe all Ukranians are nazis,no because they had an election not that long ago and the far right got a miserable percentage of the vote.

Similarly are all Russian soldiers uncivilised murderers? no but it seems their military have been wound up to believe that Ukraine is a nazi state.

And who could doubt or blame the collective belief and hatred when they lost so many people in WW2 to a merciless foe.

A lot is historical,the Finns,Poles and other eastern European nations were occupied and brutalised by the old Soviet Union their collective memory is even more recent.....and who can blame them for that either?

The Poles have been brutalised and invaded by both,witness their disdain for Russia and what they see as lame miserable support from the Germans.

On a personal note I believe Vlad is a mad old murderous bastard who gives little thought for his own people,even less for others and just sees them all in his path to glory....his legacy.

Allied to one or two you have made in previous posts , the various points and comparisons you make are how it is.
Outside of the damage already done in Donbas, not one of the numerous areas of massive destruction done to Ukrainian city's,  or any of the mass of civilian dead , would have occurred if Putin had not entered Ukraine , and proceeded to inflict both . Ukraine, has not touched Russian territory, Russia, is decimating Ukrainian territory and its population, no matter what language they use, no matter ethnic factors. 
No comparison to history makes it right. No comparison to others indiscretions makes it right. And no denial of its criminality and severity will ever make it right.

[Sheepy]

The rumour is that he is bunkered but presumably he would be very lonely even if he has his dearest with him as suggested, if he really did press the button. I just can't help but feel that someone would shoot him first.

He didn't look bunkered or alone the other day surrounded by Russian stewardesses. 

[T00ts]

I am assuming that this is true and if it is I almost give a sigh of relief. I just want the terror to stop and if this is a way of doing it then so be it. I can't help feeling that NATO has been a touch weak kneed at Putin's rhetoric and threats of great punishment. 

The rumour is that he is bunkered but presumably he would be very lonely even if he has his dearest with him as suggested, if he really did press the button. I just can't help but feel that someone would shoot him first.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10691043/First-NATO-country-sends-tanks-Ukraine-Czech-Republic-provides-tanks-following-Zelenskys-plea.html

[cromwell]

I have not been following the Political narratives on this from either side, but would simply repeat what I said previously.
Bucha was an active front line for over three weeks.
The Ukraine is fully mobilised and AK47's handed out like candy to the general population
Damage to the town and civilian casualties are as likely to have been caused by incoming Ukrainian artillery fire as by anything else
Bodies in a static no mans land will sadly be unrecoverable
Sectarian based reprisals by Ukrainian Nationalists against Ethnic Russian Ukrainians are not uncommon and many of the fresh looking bodies that were not visible in videos filmed by locals after the Russians withdrew, do have the White armbands which are used by the Russian forces and which would signify being pro Russian.

In short there has been a battle raging around this town for nearly a month and it is highly likely that what is been seen has been cumulative, through combat, over that full period of time, rather than some pointless "atrocity" as alleged by Zelensky and amplified by a media that seems to have no other purpose than to uncritically bullhorn Ukrainian propaganda claims.
Mass graves found in a Church Yard. Well where else to put them? It at least sounds that there was some attempt of sanctity and dignity to the proceedings.
Remember only the Ukrainians benefit from these alleged atrocities, as it is the lifeblood of Western sympathy that keeps money and weapons flowing into the country. Such event serve no purpose for Russia, on the battlefield or off it. As it is, the Ukrainians can be as callous and brutal as they like, simply blame the consequences on the Russians and media repeat without question and criticism and even act as willing participants in the suppression of details which contradicts the narrative.

On thing though, the sectarian element has been suppressed outside of the Donbas since 2014. These savage reprisal attacks by Ukrainian Nationalists against Ethnic Russians in Ukraine and the continued killings of Russian POW's is very likely to re-awake Pro Russian militancy throughout large areas of the Ukraine, just as it is fueling nationalistic fervor within Russia itself.

The problem we have here as illustrated in another thread is one of belief.

Do I believe some civilians have been tortured and murdered by the Russians ?  I certainly do,do I believe that all ukranians are the epitome of sweetness and light and have never committed an atrocity?no I don't.

Again do I believe all Ukranians are nazis,no because they had an election not that long ago and the far right got a miserable percentage of the vote.

Similarly are all Russian soldiers uncivilised murderers? no but it seems their military have been wound up to believe that Ukraine is a nazi state.

And who could doubt or blame the collective belief and hatred when they lost so many people in WW2 to a merciless foe.

A lot is historical,the Finns,Poles and other eastern European nations were occupied and brutalised by the old Soviet Union their collective memory is even more recent.....and who can blame them for that either?

The Poles have been brutalised and invaded by both,witness their disdain for Russia and what they see as lame miserable support from the Germans.

On a personal note I believe Vlad is a mad old murderous bastard who gives little thought for his own people,even less for others and just sees them all in his path to glory....his legacy.

[Sampanviking]

So the Russians are saying that all the killings are staged by the British and are part of a British plot to discredit the Russian govt.


The claim is that not a single civilian has been killed by Russian forces,I was told on here that Russia has done its best not to kill Ukraine civilians so leaving aside claims of bodies being placed to stage false atrocities can anyone explain the towns being retaken and multiple blocks of flats razed to the ground wasthat staged too?

Also just seen Brown calling for Putin to be brought before the ICC at The Hague,the (biased?) BBC correspondent challenged him regards the Iraq war,unbelievably he said that was different and that the law he wants to indict Putin on was only enacted in 2018 so couldn't be retrospective......what a ****.

I have not been following the Political narratives on this from either side, but would simply repeat what I said previously.
Bucha was an active front line for over three weeks.
The Ukraine is fully mobilised and AK47's handed out like candy to the general population
Damage to the town and civilian casualties are as likely to have been caused by incoming Ukrainian artillery fire as by anything else
Bodies in a static no mans land will sadly be unrecoverable
Sectarian based reprisals by Ukrainian Nationalists against Ethnic Russian Ukrainians are not uncommon and many of the fresh looking bodies that were not visible in videos filmed by locals after the Russians withdrew, do have the White armbands which are used by the Russian forces and which would signify being pro Russian.

In short there has been a battle raging around this town for nearly a month and it is highly likely that what is been seen has been cumulative, through combat, over that full period of time, rather than some pointless "atrocity" as alleged by Zelensky and amplified by a media that seems to have no other purpose than to uncritically bullhorn Ukrainian propaganda claims.
Mass graves found in a Church Yard. Well where else to put them? It at least sounds that there was some attempt of sanctity and dignity to the proceedings.
Remember only the Ukrainians benefit from these alleged atrocities, as it is the lifeblood of Western sympathy that keeps money and weapons flowing into the country. Such event serve no purpose for Russia, on the battlefield or off it. As it is, the Ukrainians can be as callous and brutal as they like, simply blame the consequences on the Russians and media repeat without question and criticism and even act as willing participants in the suppression of details which contradicts the narrative.

On thing though, the sectarian element has been suppressed outside of the Donbas since 2014. These savage reprisal attacks by Ukrainian Nationalists against Ethnic Russians in Ukraine and the continued killings of Russian POW's is very likely to re-awake Pro Russian militancy throughout large areas of the Ukraine, just as it is fueling nationalistic fervor within Russia itself.

[cromwell]

So the Russians are saying that all the killings are staged by the British and are part of a British plot to discredit the Russian govt.


The claim is that not a single civilian has been killed by Russian forces,I was told on here that Russia has done its best not to kill Ukraine civilians so leaving aside claims of bodies being placed to stage false atrocities can anyone explain the towns being retaken and multiple blocks of flats razed to the ground wasthat staged too?

Also just seen Brown calling for Putin to be brought before the ICC at The Hague,the (biased?) BBC correspondent challenged him regards the Iraq war,unbelievably he said that was different and that the law he wants to indict Putin on was only enacted in 2018 so couldn't be retrospective......what a ****.