What is really happening in the Ukraine Conflict?

[B0ycey]

I've ignored a number of your posts, not because I want to ignore them, but I can't get far before I can't read it.

Is the 'ENTER' button broken on your PC?

Breaking a sentence up, don't half make it readable.

Not my problem.

[B0ycey]

You just don't get it do you? As it happens Zelensky, and his government , have done nothing remotely on the scale that , could be used to judge either the Serbs, genocide, or Saddams depravity.
Yes they have engaged an armed insurrection bolstered by Russian mercenaries on their own territory . Most if not all allegations of wrong doing on their part being unsubstantiated.
I and others here have stated clearly it was wrong to invade Iraq, for the reasons given . It was a massive mistake, and it did destabilise the area.  Now I say Putin, is making a massive mistake ,and he has destabilised Europe, to a degree, and if he takes this much further ,Iraq, will not come into it for destabilisation.
We know what is his probable reasoning , we know he thinks he has precedents , we know he thought Ukraine, would shit them selves and roll over.
There is not a single comparison to be made that actually justifies a single Ukrainian military or civilian death at the hands of a Russian service man. But it's much worse than that, isn't it. Just this very day, a long range delivery of a cluster type device to a packed railway station. It appears to have been addressed to children. That's actually bye the bye, because it was by and large children and their parents,that it killed. There is no justification none. Why he does it justifies nothing , as with most other murderers.
The attitude for some on here is everyone ,including the Ukrainians should have pandered to him, that would have stopped him getting violent, murderous even.give him what he demands ,show how he can frighten his way to any conclusion to any situation.  Really is that not the way to certain servitude?  Call it waffle ,if you think it helps.
But what he does is wrong on every level, and it's a mistake on his part on every level.

What you talking about Good Old? Zelensky is one half of a civil war which is very much the same as Serbia vs Bosnia. And perhaps Zelensky should have implemented the Minsk agreement to its fullest or not enlisted Nazis into his army or expelled them to be more accurate which could have helped. But honestly, in terms of failings, his fault isn't so much the cause of the war but how he is acting currently. He keeps on changing his terms which is delaying talks. He is also using inflammatory language. So in that sense he is currently prolonging the war.  But sure, he isn't the main player of all this given most of it could have been avoided had the West presented dialogue on equal terms and addressed Russian concerns on their security.

As for Russia massive mistake, I wonder if talks are concluded and the result is Ukraine being a neutral state, given that is what Russia were asking for in order t9 withdraw their army from Ukraines border in February, that could be described as a mistake at all.

[Groo]

More waffle from Good Old and yet again creating Strawman I see. Without sounding like a broken record, I haven't once condoned this war. What I said is that a number of factors created this war, many of which Ukraine themselves are guilty of, the West too can have some blame too I guess and of course Russia are guilty too. It was a sting of little things that spilt over to become one big thing and nobody yielded and compromised and this raised up tensions to the point Russia decided to act. You can say whatever you like about this war, but denazification and national security are two things that are more justifiable to war than bombing for oil would ever be. Saddam was a bad man I guess. But he was only bad in regards to someone who was anti America whilst also having an iron fist to his enemies within his state. Shia Sunni, there is a lot of history here and I guess being the minority Sunni meant a weak leader would end up dead. Was it right that we got rid of him? Well that depends on if you think what came next was better than what was before. What is your opinion on ISIS? The truth is Iraq was a massive mistake. It also was never legal nor justifiable. It can be linked to mass refugees as well as ISIS. It has destabilised the area and Saddam is no different to the Saudis who are currently at war with Yemen along with the human right breaches in any case. The only reason we got rid of Saddam was because he was anti American in a land of oil. Assad fate could have easily followed in the same manner. And Maduro in Venezuela has also been hit with the naughty stick because he dared to be a leader of a oil rich Latino country. Pro American states can do whatever they like it seems. We have Saudi Arabia like you know, but we have Qatar as well and for some reason we never talk about these countries in regards to human rights abuses nor invasions to maintain peace. It should have been obvious to you last month that whether war is just or not depends on what side of the geopolitical narrative that nation has. The only reason you think Ukraine is a terrible war is simply because it is in Europe against a pro Western leader and no other reason. Did you think the same when we entered Yugoslavia and arrested Milosevic? Zelensky two months ago was being told to sort out his nations corruption problems by US and now he is the leader of the free f**king world fighting for Democracy. I have been reading the narrative changes going on for a while now and to be honest it is so obvious it is laughable. So Whatever the outcome of this war, I am starting to see a pattern. Whatever the nation, whatever the leader, we must work to something we all agree on which is sovereignty. We don't have the right to demand regime change on nations and in return we should expect other nations to not invade either. And if we think we have the right to invade on this bollocks of freedom, Democracy or human rights, then all I will say is who exactly is defending the rights of the people of Donbass today?

I've ignored a number of your posts, not because I want to ignore them, but I can't get far before I can't read it.

Is the 'ENTER' button broken on your PC?

Breaking a sentence up, don't half make it readable. 

[cromwell]

Picture from 2015.

Which is?

[Groo]

When propaganda goes wrong

https://twitter.com/JulianRoepcke/status/1512365048018132997?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1512365048018132997%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fnewcastle-online.org%2Findex.php%3Fapp%3Dcoremodule%3Dsystemcontroller%3Dembedurl%3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fmobile.twitter.com%2FJulianRoepcke%2Fstatus%2F1512365048018132997%3Fref_src%3Dtwsrc255Etfw
 

[Sheepy]

Aye well the Neo Liberals are outraged, where was the outrage about the years of civil war and ethnic cleansing?

[Good old]

More waffle from Good Old and yet again creating Strawman I see. Without sounding like a broken record, I haven't once condoned this war. What I said is that a number of factors created this war, many of which Ukraine themselves are guilty of, the West too can have some blame too I guess and of course Russia are guilty too. It was a sting of little things that spilt over to become one big thing and nobody yielded and compromised and this raised up tensions to the point Russia decided to act. You can say whatever you like about this war, but denazification and national security are two things that are more justifiable to war than bombing for oil would ever be. Saddam was a bad man I guess. But he was only bad in regards to someone who was anti America whilst also having an iron fist to his enemies within his state. Shia Sunni, there is a lot of history here and I guess being the minority Sunni meant a weak leader would end up dead. Was it right that we got rid of him? Well that depends on if you think what came next was better than what was before. What is your opinion on ISIS? The truth is Iraq was a massive mistake. It also was never legal nor justifiable. It can be linked to mass refugees as well as ISIS. It has destabilised the area and Saddam is no different to the Saudis who are currently at war with Yemen along with the human right breaches in any case. The only reason we got rid of Saddam was because he was anti American in a land of oil. Assad fate could have easily followed in the same manner. And Maduro in Venezuela has also been hit with the naughty stick because he dared to be a leader of a oil rich Latino country. Pro American states can do whatever they like it seems. We have Saudi Arabia like you know, but we have Qatar as well and for some reason we never talk about these countries in regards to human rights abuses nor invasions to maintain peace. It should have been obvious to you last month that whether war is just or not depends on what side of the geopolitical narrative that nation has. The only reason you think Ukraine is a terrible war is simply because it is in Europe against a pro Western leader and no other reason. Did you think the same when we entered Yugoslavia and arrested Milosevic? Zelensky two months ago was being told to sort out his nations corruption problems by US and now he is the leader of the free f**king world fighting for Democracy. I have been reading the narrative changes going on for a while now and to be honest it is so obvious it is laughable. So Whatever the outcome of this war, I am starting to see a pattern. Whatever the nation, whatever the leader, we must work to something we all agree on which is sovereignty. We don't have the right to demand regime change on nations and in return we should expect other nations to not invade either. And if we think we have the right to invade on this bollocks of freedom, Democracy or human rights, then all I will say is who exactly is defending the rights of the people of Donbass today?

You just don't get it do you? As it happens Zelensky, and his government , have done nothing remotely on the scale that , could be used to judge either the Serbs, genocide, or Saddams depravity.
Yes they have engaged an armed insurrection bolstered by Russian mercenaries on their own territory . Most if not all allegations of wrong doing on their part being unsubstantiated.
I and others here have stated clearly it was wrong to invade Iraq, for the reasons given . It was a massive mistake, and it did destabilise the area.  Now I say Putin, is making a massive mistake ,and he has destabilised Europe, to a degree, and if he takes this much further ,Iraq, will not come into it for destabilisation.
We know what is his probable reasoning , we know he thinks he has precedents , we know he thought Ukraine, would shit them selves and roll over. 
There is not a single comparison to be made that actually justifies a single Ukrainian military or civilian death at the hands of a Russian service man. But it's much worse than that, isn't it. Just this very day, a long range delivery of a cluster type device to a packed railway station. It appears to have been addressed to children. That's actually bye the bye, because it was by and large children and their parents,that it killed. There is no justification none. Why he does it justifies nothing , as with most other murderers. 
The attitude for some on here is everyone ,including the Ukrainians should have pandered to him, that would have stopped him getting violent, murderous even.give him what he demands ,show how he can frighten his way to any conclusion to any situation.  Really is that not the way to certain servitude?  Call it waffle ,if you think it helps. 
But what he does is wrong on every level, and it's a mistake on his part on every level.

[B0ycey]

Did I say it was right to invade Iraq? No, for the reasons given it was completely wrong. But I  don't ignore the fact that Saddam , was a nasty piece of work that by his disregard for human life had presided over thousands upon thousands of deaths in his neighbours countries, and his own. And in no way could be Compared to the Ukrainian president or his government. It's pretty clear who the Nazis are , it's just that some own to it and others call themselves Russian. Neither war has justification,.So if you want to be fair about it , which you don't really, just ask Mr Putin to get the f—k out of Ukraine. And please , Drone, are you f—king kidding mate. Have you read or heard your bollox in regard to Putins rights in this.? You defend the indefensible Boycey, Putin has walked into someone else's house, started killing the occupants and destroying the front room, all because he wants to take over the kitchen. And that's all right because Boycey and a few others think he is right to do it because his cousin the lodger , was having a Barney with the landlord .
The double standard that stands out is. Putin ,in Ukraine ,supports peoples quest for independence by invasion of a democracy, or that's his excuse.
Putin, in Syria, crushes peoples quest for independence from a dictator, by allowing his military to support , a tyrants cause in suppressing the people and of course any chance of democracy.

More waffle from Good Old and yet again creating Strawman I see. Without sounding like a broken record, I haven't once condoned this war. What I said is that a number of factors created this war, many of which Ukraine themselves are guilty of, the West too can have some blame too I guess and of course Russia are guilty too. It was a sting of little things that spilt over to become one big thing and nobody yielded and compromised and this raised up tensions to the point Russia decided to act. You can say whatever you like about this war, but denazification and national security are two things that are more justifiable to war than bombing for oil would ever be. Saddam was a bad man I guess. But he was only bad in regards to someone who was anti America whilst also having an iron fist to his enemies within his state. Shia Sunni, there is a lot of history here and I guess being the minority Sunni meant a weak leader would end up dead. Was it right that we got rid of him? Well that depends on if you think what came next was better than what was before. What is your opinion on ISIS? The truth is Iraq was a massive mistake. It also was never legal nor justifiable. It can be linked to mass refugees as well as ISIS. It has destabilised the area and Saddam is no different to the Saudis who are currently at war with Yemen along with the human right breaches in any case. The only reason we got rid of Saddam was because he was anti American in a land of oil. Assad fate could have easily followed in the same manner. And Maduro in Venezuela has also been hit with the naughty stick because he dared to be a leader of a oil rich Latino country. Pro American states can do whatever they like it seems. We have Saudi Arabia like you know, but we have Qatar as well and for some reason we never talk about these countries in regards to human rights abuses nor invasions to maintain peace. It should have been obvious to you last month that whether war is just or not depends on what side of the geopolitical narrative that nation has. The only reason you think Ukraine is a terrible war is simply because it is in Europe against a pro Western leader and no other reason. Did you think the same when we entered Yugoslavia and arrested Milosevic? Zelensky two months ago was being told to sort out his nations corruption problems by US and now he is the leader of the free fucking world fighting for Democracy. I have been reading the narrative changes going on for a while now and to be honest it is so obvious it is laughable. So Whatever the outcome of this war, I am starting to see a pattern. Whatever the nation, whatever the leader, we must work to something we all agree on which is sovereignty. We don't have the right to demand regime change on nations and in return we should expect other nations to not invade either. And if we think we have the right to invade on this bollocks of freedom, Democracy or human rights, then all I will say is who exactly is defending the rights of the people of Donbass today?

[Scott777]

Much made of Nazi Ukraine,like I said they are everywhere from highest to lowest,even in the Kremlin
https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1512138247064985600?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1512138247064985600%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=

Picture from 2015.

[Scott777]

"Multiple U.S. officials acknowledged that the U.S. has used information as a weapon even when confidence in the accuracy of the information wasn't high. Sometimes it has used low-confidence intelligence for deterrent effect, as with chemical agents, and other times, as an official put it, the U.S. is just "trying to get inside Putin's head.""

In other words, claims of Putin planning to use chemical weapons was unreliable, and probably just bullshite.  Who'd have thought? 🤣

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/us-using-declassified-intel-fight-info-war-russia-even-intel-isnt-rock-rcna23014

[Sampanviking]

So what?

What is it with Sam? You can't see a thug like Xi Pinjing or Vladimir Putin without trying to kiss his arse.

The Russian have invaded the Ukraine and they should turn around and go home. And before you come up with your usual yes but, there isn't any yes but.

So your saying what? The only NATO and friends have the right to invade other countries for whatever reason?
Sounds like someone who likes to dish it out but can;t take it when its given back...

[Borchester]

That may well have worked had people just left the situation alone. Instead they had to go inspiring and supporting illegal coups and even turning up to hand out tea and snacks to the rioters.
No country would accept what was done in Ukraine if it had any choice and Russia is doing nothing that the UK, The EU or the US would not do if a legitimate government in a neighboring state was overturned by a revolution or coup and an overtly hostile regime installed in its place. We saw how the US reacted in Cuba. In the Ukraine, this would be the equivalent of Mexico.

So what?

What is it with Sam? You can't see a thug like Xi Pinjing or Vladimir Putin without trying to kiss his arse.

The Russian have invaded the Ukraine and they should turn around and go home. And before you come up with your usual yes but, there isn't any yes but.

[Sampanviking]

https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/syul6y/ukraine_ussr_break_away_vote_1991/

I have given this before, and repeat it . Because it reflects the situation in Ukraine, and the fact that Ukrainian independence was accept by Russia, and internationally at that time.
Contained within the figures given were always going to be a minority of people that would never totally accept a break with Russia. Inflaming that is all Russia, or more to the point a nationalist of Putins sort needed to play on and encourage to a point of violence. And that is what he has done. He now try's, and I repeat try's, to use his break through to re-subjugate Ukraine, to his political will. In the most profound manner Ukraine is being forced to express its rights to statehood free of of his say so. Resisting any insurrection in one's own state by that's states government is to be expected, and allowed for. He,Putin ,proves that by his work in Syria. Few have any complete moral ground. He has none. Just excuses .

That may well have worked had people just left the situation alone. Instead they had to go inspiring and supporting illegal coups and even turning up to hand out tea and snacks to the rioters.
No country would accept what was done in Ukraine if it had any choice and Russia is doing nothing that the UK, The EU or the US would not do if a legitimate government in a neighboring state was overturned by a revolution or coup and an overtly hostile regime installed in its place. We saw how the US reacted in Cuba. In the Ukraine, this would be the equivalent of Mexico.

[Good old]

More Bulwarks
The Ukraine started this war back in 2014 because it choose to do so and deliberately failed to implement a UN ratified peace plan.
Now NATO has turned this into a full proxy war
Russia at least has real skin in this game, but what do we have other than sanctimonious hypocrisy?
The East and South of what is now the Ukraine is Russian Territory, with cities built by Russia, populated by Russian speaking ethnic Russians who overwhelmingly want to be part of Russia once more (or at the very least not under the Kiev regime)
Everything Russia has done is in accordance with the precedents that we have set over the last, nearly forty years. Russia's intervention in Ukraine is a perfect R2P based on the definitions we have defined and with far more natural justification than any such similar operation that the West has ever undertaken.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/syul6y/ukraine_ussr_break_away_vote_1991/

I have given this before, and repeat it . Because it reflects the situation in Ukraine, and the fact that Ukrainian independence was accept by Russia, and internationally at that time.
Contained within the figures given were always going to be a minority of people that would never totally accept a break with Russia. Inflaming that is all Russia, or more to the point a nationalist of Putins sort needed to play on and encourage to a point of violence. And that is what he has done. He now try's, and I repeat try's, to use his break through to re-subjugate Ukraine, to his political will. In the most profound manner Ukraine is being forced to express its rights to statehood free of of his say so. Resisting any insurrection in one's own state by that's states government is to be expected, and allowed for. He,Putin ,proves that by his work in Syria. Few have any complete moral ground. He has none. Just excuses .

[Sampanviking]

Yes there is as in all cases of urban warfare, collateral civilian casualties. What you seem to promote is the idea that the Ukrainians , should just step aside ,and allow the Russian army to enforce Putins will.
Only one side of this argument chose to strike, and strike on the others territory , and that was Russia. Ukraine is not Russias vassel state it has every right to defend its self in its City's, it's towns, it's streets ,it's fields. And if it is to retain its sovereign integrity it has to do that with every means it possesses .
Russia, has forced the Ukrainians to deploy a basic right to try and destroy an armed invasion of its territory.
This was Russias choice, and every thing that comes from that choice is now their own fault, and no one else's.
The basics are that the Russians have no right to deploy anywhere in Ukraine, the Ukrainians do.

More Bulwarks
The Ukraine started this war back in 2014 because it choose to do so and deliberately failed to implement a UN ratified peace plan.
Now NATO has turned this into a full proxy war
Russia at least has real skin in this game, but what do we have other than sanctimonious hypocrisy?
The East and South of what is now the Ukraine is Russian Territory, with cities built by Russia, populated by Russian speaking ethnic Russians who overwhelmingly want to be part of Russia once more (or at the very least not under the Kiev regime)
Everything Russia has done is in accordance with the precedents that we have set over the last, nearly forty years. Russia's intervention in Ukraine is a perfect R2P based on the definitions we have defined and with far more natural justification than any such similar operation that the West has ever undertaken.