What is really happening in the Ukraine Conflict?

[Good old]

Snooooooreeeee!

But to summarise this long post, I don't give detail because I have to type on my phone and I try and explain things using as few words as possible. But everything I write is known if you do some research anyway and that is up to you to do if you want to educate yourself.

Second, if graves are expected in Donbass, it makes sense they are in Bucha as well. There are 14000 dead in Donbass, and only 400 in Bucha it should be said but I guess the war in Donbass has been going on for longer.

As for the broad term of Genocide, that isn't down to Russia but the redefining of the term in the Anglosphere. There was a time it meant mass killing of an ethnic minority or the eradication of a group of people. Today it means whatever the f**k you want it to mean. America call Chinas education centres in Xinjiang which were set up to prevent terrorism genocide of the Uighurs despite nobody being killed and being ran in the same manner of Guantanamo. Palestine isn't apparently genocide despite Israeli settlers taking Palestinian land. If you want my personal opinion, what has gone on in Donbass isn't genocide but Russia is only using the term in the same manner the Americans are using it given the suppression of the Russian language and Russian history in Russian speaking districts of Ukraine.

I will summarise on the behalf of a half asleep Boycey. Where have I said graves do not exist inDonbas? I do say the proof is thin, but not that they do not exist.
The figure you give of 14,000 is widely disputed as to its  accuracy anyway, as there have been many casualties for both sides of that argument.
If you paid attention this is not about if there are graves, it's about the nature of their contents, proof of  this in Donbas,is almost non existent.  And although yet to be assessed fully in Bucha,  at least the evidence is being examined by foreign examiners, at the moment a French team is prominent. So if you stopped trying to have so much imagined superiority.and actually addressed what actually is the point, without the silly drone and snooze comments. Maybe you might benefit from some education?
So now that the genocide argument, really doesn't work in the Russians favour ,it's because they have borrowed others misinterpretation of the term? Russia, only needs recognise that killing Ukrainians ,and dominating Ukrainian land, is genocide. This has been demonstrated for all to see, unless you are Russian, that is.

[B0ycey]

So that's it Boycey, the usual avoidance of the detail.  I said mass graves are expected in war. Not particularly in Donbas. If anyone drones here it's yourself Boycey, . The use of that term , says a lot more about you than me in many ways. None very complementary to yourself.
You say Donbas has seen fighting since 2014  a war has been going on in Donbas, that's what Russia is happy to have the world know, in that period.  These mass graves in Donbas don't seem to be witnessed by that many people, or are the subject much detail in their contents . But never mind. It's likely that graves containing a number of dead will be there.
If the Russians have such a loose grasp on what genocide actually looks like that may explain ,though not excuse the fact that by their  own standards what they do in Ukraine,  is genocide by a not very broad understanding of what actually constitutes genocide. Putin, is proving that if Donbas, is not handed over he will kill everything that gets in his way. In so doing he is stopping Ukrainians ,being Ukrainians by killing them. He kills Ukrainians, to stop Ukrainians being Ukrainian . In life, not just language, history, ethnicity.. How many ways can this be said. And by your own standards before it becomes clearly genocide .If Russia, has decency, Putin, has that under wraps along with much else. His armed forces left decency well behind when they started their killing spree.

Snooooooreeeee!

But to summarise this long post, I don't give detail because I have to type on my phone and I try and explain things using as few words as possible. But everything I write is known if you do some research anyway and that is up to you to do if you want to educate yourself.

Second, if graves are expected in Donbass, it makes sense they are in Bucha as well. There are 14000 dead in Donbass, and only 400 in Bucha it should be said but I guess the war in Donbass has been going on for longer.

As for the broad term of Genocide, that isn't down to Russia but the redefining of the term in the Anglosphere. There was a time it meant mass killing of an ethnic minority or the eradication of a group of people. Today it means whatever the f**k you want it to mean. America call Chinas education centres in Xinjiang which were set up to prevent terrorism genocide of the Uighurs despite nobody being killed and being ran in the same manner of Guantanamo. Palestine isn't apparently genocide despite Israeli settlers taking Palestinian land. If you want my personal opinion, what has gone on in Donbass isn't genocide but Russia is only using the term in the same manner the Americans are using it given the suppression of the Russian language and Russian history in Russian speaking districts of Ukraine.

[Good old]

So mass graves are expected in Donbass, but not in Bucha? You cannot make that shit up. What twisted logic from the drone.

As for genocide, I think the word needs redefining actually. It seems more a slur these days. Genocide is occurring in Donbass in the sense Russian speakers are being told they can't speak Russian in school and the language isn't classed as an official language. Russian history is also not being taught. And in a country of Russian decency, that is genocide in the liberal sense of the word.

So that's it Boycey, the usual avoidance of the detail.  I said mass graves are expected in war. Not particularly in Donbas. If anyone drones here it's yourself Boycey, . The use of that term , says a lot more about you than me in many ways. None very complementary to yourself.
You say Donbas has seen fighting since 2014  a war has been going on in Donbas, that's what Russia is happy to have the world know, in that period.  These mass graves in Donbas don't seem to be witnessed by that many people, or are the subject much detail in their contents . But never mind. It's likely that graves containing a number of dead will be there.
If the Russians have such a loose grasp on what genocide actually looks like that may explain ,though not excuse the fact that by their  own standards what they do in Ukraine,  is genocide by a not very broad understanding of what actually constitutes genocide. Putin, is proving that if Donbas, is not handed over he will kill everything that gets in his way. In so doing he is stopping Ukrainians ,being Ukrainians by killing them. He kills Ukrainians, to stop Ukrainians being Ukrainian . In life, not just language, history, ethnicity.. How many ways can this be said. And by your own standards before it becomes clearly genocide .If Russia, has decency, Putin, has that under wraps along with much else. His armed forces left decency well behind when they started their killing spree.

[Borchester]

So are you actually saying that Russia's current action is justified and right?

Dunno if they are justified, but they do strike me as a bit dim.

Until now Putin had a long, murderous civil war on his doorstep that could have dealt with by showing statesman like restraint and ignoring. Instead he has blundered into the idiotic war that will probably last forever and managed the seemly impossible feat of uniting NATO, a previously sleepy organisation whose main objective has always been to get the Yanks to pay for everything, against him.

It really is time Vlad retired and spent more time with his vodka bottle.

[Sampanviking]

No need for gas, tear or otherwise
Most of the Avoz holdouts are in the huge Steelworks by the waterfront and it seems in a series of heavy concrete underground chambers and passages. No idea if these are an integral part of the factory of built by the military as a defences.
Anyhow the Russians are now threatening to pump in Sea Water if they don't surrender.

[B0ycey]

The people in the know suggest the symptoms look like Chlorine gas. Seeing as the attack was alleged to be in as industrial area, it is likely to be a lone attack. If it had been a premeditated attack, Russian soldiers would have been issued with NBC equipment and apparently they weren't.

Chlorine gas is something of an instant effect. That is to say, you would know what it was straight away without question and it would disoriented you. The symptoms describe are of very much like tear gas given the people who were exposed managed to escape and describe the symptoms. But you are right about Russian soldiers not having the right equipment.

My guess it that is was a smoke bomb anyway and the symptoms described are due to it being in a chemical plant due to this being an isolated incident. Russia doesn't need to use chemical weapons on people who are cornered and can't get supplies.

[B0ycey]

Mass graves in war are to be expected. Russian claims for such graves are vague to say the least. And claims of a genocide are backed with nothing outside of vague claims of graves. And Google doesn't improve the picture.
As said we don't know the complete reason for mass graves in Bucha, , and elsewhere , but it's very clear they are there. And there is already some evidence to the condition of the corpses to be found in and out of those graves.
As for genocide , Russia, is in danger of committing that every moment it remains in Ukraine killing its inhabitants,

So mass graves are expected in Donbass, but not in Bucha? You cannot make that shit up. What twisted logic from the drone.

As for genocide, I think the word needs redefining actually. It seems more a slur these days. Genocide is occurring in Donbass in the sense Russian speakers are being told they can't speak Russian in school and the language isn't classed as an official language. Russian history is also not being taught. And in a country of Russian decency, that is genocide in the liberal sense of the word.

[B0ycey]

So are you actually saying that Russia's current action is justified and right?

No it isn't right. But there is justification for the war in some aspects. It is nothing I haven't written before. But the mission according the Russia is a peacekeeping mission. It was to denazify and demilitarise Ukraine. The first objective is complete, and now the war is centred in Donbass. It is occurring there because that is where the Russian speaking population are. When the BBC interviewed people leaving Donbass the other day on who they blamed for the war, the majority said Zelensky. So where the fighting is happening right now is mainly pro Russian. So given that, who exactly is liberating who right now?

[Good old]

Mass graves have also been witnessed in Donbass, and that includes Western Media Good Old. So again your argument doesn't really work here. The war in Donbass has been reported on since 2014. The difference is, the stories have been more niche or the final 5 minute report at the end of a bulletin given it isn't really in our interests to report on Genocide in Ukraine against Russian speakers. Of course, mass graves in Donbass have had more prominence on RT given they have done a number of documentaries on the subject, but when you watch them the independent journalists who discuss it are indeed Western in any case and as I said, the information is on Google if you are actually interested.

Mass graves in war are to be expected. Russian claims for such graves are vague to say the least. And claims of a genocide are backed with nothing outside of vague claims of graves. And Google doesn't improve the picture.
As said we don't know the complete reason for mass graves in Bucha, , and elsewhere , but it's very clear they are there. And there is already some evidence to the condition of the corpses to be found in and out of those graves.
As for genocide , Russia, is in danger of committing that every moment it remains in Ukraine killing its inhabitants, 

[T00ts]

Mass graves have also been witnessed in Donbass, and that includes Western Media Good Old. So again your argument doesn't really work here. The war in Donbass has been reported on since 2014. The difference is, the stories have been more niche or the final 5 minute report at the end of a bulletin given it isn't really in our interests to report on Genocide in Ukraine against Russian speakers. Of course, mass graves in Donbass have had more prominence on RT given they have done a number of documentaries on the subject, but when you watch them the independent journalists who discuss it are indeed Western in any case and as I said, the information is on Google if you are actually interested.

So are you actually saying that Russia's current action is justified and right?

[Nick]

I noticed three far right nationalists from the Azov battalion describe symptoms that are similar to tear gas and the West seem up in arms right now @Sampanking. There is no evidence, only a single report and the reliance of the word from Nazis to go by in any case. It seems Nazis are only bad in Germany. In Ukraine, they are trustworthy.

The people in the know suggest the symptoms look like Chlorine gas. Seeing as the attack was alleged to be in as industrial area, it is likely to be a lone attack. If it had been a premeditated attack, Russian soldiers would have been issued with NBC equipment and apparently they weren't. 

[B0ycey]

Not quiet ,Boycey , The full extent of Ukrainian claims has not been determined. But the graves, and conditions surrounding those graves has been witnessed by the Press we know , but also some notable foreign politicians and other observers. To say nothing of international TV coverage. Putin, needs more than claims. He needs a catalogue of verified evidence, and he hasn't got it. And neither have you.

Mass graves have also been witnessed in Donbass, and that includes Western Media Good Old. So again your argument doesn't really work here. The war in Donbass has been reported on since 2014. The difference is, the stories have been more niche or the final 5 minute report at the end of a bulletin given it isn't really in our interests to report on Genocide in Ukraine against Russian speakers. Of course, mass graves in Donbass have had more prominence on RT given they have done a number of documentaries on the subject, but when you watch them the independent journalists who discuss it are indeed Western in any case and as I said, the information is on Google if you are actually interested.

[Good old]

Does your fingers not work on Google or something? Under such logic there must be no mass graves in Bucha either. You can't have it both ways.

Not quiet ,Boycey , The full extent of Ukrainian claims has not been determined. But the graves, and conditions surrounding those graves has been witnessed by the Press we know , but also some notable foreign politicians and other observers. To say nothing of international TV coverage. Putin, needs more than claims. He needs a catalogue of verified evidence, and he hasn't got it. And neither have you.

[B0ycey]

Yugoslavia, has its uses then..Would it not be useful if you had some really solid evidence of the actual nature of these claimed mass graves, to display.  Twitter and Internet forums , are flimsy to say the least. And only reflect how flimsy these claims actually are.

Does your fingers not work on Google or something? Under such logic there must be no mass graves in Bucha either. You can't have it both ways.

[Good old]

Ehh... Yugoslavia anyone? And if we do invading NATO members, the figure is double digits.

And it was 14000 people in Donbass along with the mass graves since 2014. But I guess as you struggle to read unless there is a break between sentences, you are cutting the literature on the subject to what you can read on Twitter and Internet forums.

Yugoslavia, has its uses then..Would it not be useful if you had some really solid evidence of the actual nature of these claimed mass graves, to display.  Twitter and Internet forums , are flimsy to say the least. And only reflect how flimsy these claims actually are.