What is really happening in the Ukraine Conflict?

[patman post]

There is no dilemma Patman Post. NATO said they wouldn't encroach towards the Russian border and they did just that. Is it really surprising that Russia took offence to that? It should be said that Russia and the West did have a good relationship until quite recently and Russia even offered support to America during 9/11. The straw that broke the camels back was Crimea. Russia wouldn't allow NATO to station there so they annexed it whilst their Navy was based there and obviously the West then sanctioned them in return. And perhaps things could have continued as it were had Zelensky just pursued a Finnish defence pact with the West rather than NATO membership. We then had a few months of Western leaders going to Russia and telling them to get over their security concerns and we had the audacity to say we negotiated with them in good faith when talks failed. How? By telling them that NATO membership is open for all and telling Russia to get over it.

Seems to me that murdering various opponents and enemies on British soil is somewhat of a guide on how the UK — and others — should view Putin's Russia. 

Your excuses for Putin's murderous behaviour are risible.

You must be a paid up supporter, gullible idiot, or a gamer...

[Barry]

There is a big difference between the Russian soldiers and the Ukrainian ones. The Russians will be told by the generals exactly what to do, and if that involves walking in front of a bus they will be expected to do it and will die. The Ukrainians have had extensive training from the west and been weaned off that kind of warfare. Hence the reason the Russians aren't making the inroads they expected. 

I didn't realise at first, but you really are an expert from sh*t to rhubarb.

When the new ordinance gets to the Ukrainians the Russians are toast, and I personally hope they suffer and have a slow painful death.

I was watching a "Sharpe" episode one time when he was asked to drink a toast to "Death to the French". Richard Sharpe refused as he believed all soldiers were worthy of respect. Hoping for anyone to have a slow and painful death is a cruel thing in my opinion.

Obviously Bernard Cornwell had morals.

[B0ycey]

Have to agree ,that ever trusting Putin , to the degree many western politicians did was a massive mistake.
But once bitten, twice shy. And if nothing else this is a mistake for Putin, as it will certainly cause a negative reaction regardless of ,what he does now and in the near future?
He waves his nuks, as if only he has them. He threatens even Sweden, which is not an actual neighbour, if they should arrange a new way of defending its self. Finland, and of course Ukraine. His invasion of Ukraine, yet to take its full course, tells not just those countries but the western world , not just what he might do but what he will do.
Whether he takes Donbas or not, he has in effect got NATO a on his door step. If he takes Ukraine , which NATO may yet stop happening, he has NATO on his case. If he so much as gets aggressive with Finland, or Sweden. It will be very clear NATO, is the one being provoked.  He gains very little, and risks a much larger confrontation for very little. The greatest shame of this is that the innocents of Ukraine, have had to pay often with their lives for , for this man's wicked onslaught , merely to impress his people that by indulging in a border dispute, at great cost to his own armed forces, and his countries  economy,  with very little actual difference to the status quo, he somehow becomes a great leader. As said once bitten.

All Russia have done is explained what will happen if Finland and Sweden join NATO Good Old. They haven't threatened anyone. They have just explained that more military and defensive capacity will be stationed on the Finnish border which should be expected. So if the objective for both nations is to feal more "safe" they can't be said they weren't warned what the price of "safety" means in real terms.

[Good old]

The picture of Russia being frightened of NATO encroachment makes me laugh. The only fear they have is the one that has transpired. They only want unfettered access to nations on their borders with a view to invading and extending Russian territory when it suits them. They were quite content while such nations are unprotected in any real terms. Already they threaten other free countries who look to NATO membership.

How anyone cannot have seen Putin's long term plans over decades defeats me. He has made himself quietly invaluable in fuel etc over decades with just one aim. He has astutely and menacingly acquired massive bargaining chips including missiles all the while appearing to be inclusive and amenable. How stupid the Western leaders now look.

Have to agree ,that ever trusting Putin , to the degree many western politicians did was a massive mistake.
But once bitten, twice shy. And if nothing else this is a mistake for Putin, as it will certainly cause a negative reaction regardless of ,what he does now and in the near future?
He waves his nuks, as if only he has them. He threatens even Sweden, which is not an actual neighbour, if they should arrange a new way of defending its self. Finland, and of course Ukraine. His invasion of Ukraine, yet to take its full course, tells not just those countries but the western world , not just what he might do but what he will do.
Whether he takes Donbas or not, he has in effect got NATO a on his door step. If he takes Ukraine , which NATO may yet stop happening, he has NATO on his case. If he so much as gets aggressive with Finland, or Sweden. It will be very clear NATO, is the one being provoked.  He gains very little, and risks a much larger confrontation for very little. The greatest shame of this is that the innocents of Ukraine, have had to pay often with their lives for , for this man's wicked onslaught , merely to impress his people that by indulging in a border dispute, at great cost to his own armed forces, and his countries  economy,  with very little actual difference to the status quo, he somehow becomes a great leader. As said once bitten.

[T00ts]

The picture of Russia being frightened of NATO encroachment makes me laugh. The only fear they have is the one that has transpired. They only want unfettered access to nations on their borders with a view to invading and extending Russian territory when it suits them. They were quite content while such nations are unprotected in any real terms. Already they threaten other free countries who look to NATO membership.

How anyone cannot have seen Putin's long term plans over decades defeats me. He has made himself quietly invaluable in fuel etc over decades with just one aim. He has astutely and menacingly acquired massive bargaining chips including missiles all the while appearing to be inclusive and amenable. How stupid the Western leaders now look.

[B0ycey]

And stop invading and you won't have a war.

Perhaps. But does the issues that caused the war just disappear by doing that? Say what you want about the invasion but at least the things Russia was asking for but were once being ignored are being addressed in talks now.

The truth is the war can only end in negotiations and until there is agreement they will be conflict. I do think it is likely to simmer to trench warfare in the coming weeks and then the fighting will be stalemate. Russia does seem to have achieved all their objective they set at the beginning of the war in terms of military involvement and the only things left to sort out which are Ukrainian NATO membership and better representation for the people of Donbass can only be sorted out with talks.

[B0ycey]

Seems to me, it's the attitude you're displaying there that's brought Nato to its current dilemma.

Maybe Europe and Nato were correct in trying to achieve a relaxed relationship between Moscow and them by increasing trade, giving observer status to military manoeuvres, and reacting in a subdued manner to Putin's escapades in Russia, Chechnya, and Georgia — after all they probably were slow to realise they were dealing with a brutal power-crazed state mafia boss.

But they surely know now, and are still not giving a clear message. 

In the end probably (if some type of ceasefire happens) there'll be an agreement, no one will be punished for war crimes, and the world will nervously wait for a change of Russian leader.

And thousands of lives will have been lost because the world is scared of one unstable, evil power-hungry individual's nuclear weapons...?

There is no dilemma Patman Post. NATO said they wouldn't encroach towards the Russian border and they did just that. Is it really surprising that Russia took offence to that? It should be said that Russia and the West did have a good relationship until quite recently and Russia even offered support to America during 9/11. The straw that broke the camels back was Crimea. Russia wouldn't allow NATO to station there so they annexed it whilst their Navy was based there and obviously the West then sanctioned them in return. And perhaps things could have continued as it were had Zelensky just pursued a Finnish defence pact with the West rather than NATO membership. We then had a few months of Western leaders going to Russia and telling them to get over their security concerns and we had the audacity to say we negotiated with them in good faith when talks failed. How? By telling them that NATO membership is open for all and telling Russia to get over it.

[Borchester]

T00ts, without sounding funny, there is reason for Russians offensive if you are willing to listen to what they say. And if you must know Russia are negotiating and sent Zelensky their principles for peace. We may well have stopped the war by now had Zelensky not diverted things that were previously agreed. So no, I don't agree with Johnson it is like talking to a crocodile. The West talk to Russia and not compromise and demand and in return Russia doesn't compromise and demand. That isn't talking. That is dictating. Stop dictating and you may well get somewhere talking.

And stop invading and you won't have a war.

[patman post]

T00ts, without sounding funny, there is reason for Russians offensive if you are willing to listen to what they say. And if you must know Russia are negotiating and sent Zelensky their principles for peace. We may well have stopped the war by now had Zelensky not diverted things that were previously agreed. So no, I don't agree with Johnson it is like talking to a crocodile. The West talk to Russia and not compromise and demand and in return Russia doesn't compromise and demand. That isn't talking. That is dictating. Stop dictating and you may well get somewhere talking.

Seems to me, it's the attitude you're displaying there that's brought Nato to its current dilemma.

Maybe Europe and Nato were correct in trying to achieve a relaxed relationship between Moscow and them by increasing trade, giving observer status to military manoeuvres, and reacting in a subdued manner to Putin's escapades in Russia, Chechnya, and Georgia — after all they probably were slow to realise they were dealing with a brutal power-crazed state mafia boss.

But they surely know now, and are still not giving a clear message. 

In the end probably (if some type of ceasefire happens) there'll be an agreement, no one will be punished for war crimes, and the world will nervously wait for a change of Russian leader.

And thousands of lives will have been lost because the world is scared of one unstable, evil power-hungry individual's nuclear weapons...?

[B0ycey]

As far as I am aware Putin will talk if Ukraine surrenders their country to him. This has been barbaric. How many more countries have to suffer this inhumanity? Russia has form yet you still support their barbarism. It's beyond belief.

I don't support this war and no other nations are involved in this conflict. Also have you not thought that maybe the Donbass isn't Ukrainian supporting?

The truth is where the fighting in Ukraine is occurring today is in the very place there has been a civil war for 8 years. Putin didn't need to split the country up, it had done that itself. Russia has withdrawn all their troops to the Donbass (or back to Russia, Belarus) so why do you think Ukraine will have to surrender the country to Russia? Putin has already said that Zelensky is the elected leader of Ukraine and that they aren't on a nation building mission. It is true that Russia recognises Luhansk and Donatsk as independent countries, but it wouldn't take much for Russia to compromise here, just adopt principles and practices that were agreed in the Minsk II resolution.

[Sampanviking]

All the Russians have to do is feck off back to Russia

They never left it

Mind you I understand the sentiments, many people in Iraq, Afghanistan and many other places over the years have exactly the same thoughts about us.
I guess though we are different and in some way exceptional.

[T00ts]

T00ts, without sounding funny, there is reason for Russians offensive if you are willing to listen to what they say. And if you must know Russia are negotiating and sent Zelensky their principles for peace. We may well have stopped the war by now had Zelensky not diverted things that were previously agreed. So no, I don't agree with Johnson it is like talking to a crocodile. The West talk to Russia and not compromise and demand and in return Russia doesn't compromise and demand. That isn't talking. That is dictating. Stop dictating and you may well get somewhere talking.

As far as I am aware Putin will talk if Ukraine surrenders their country to him. This has been barbaric. How many more countries have to suffer this inhumanity? Russia has form yet you still support their barbarism. It's beyond belief.

[B0ycey]

... and that makes it OK? Like Boris said - how do you have 'talks' with a crocodile that has it's teeth around your leg? Putin doesn't want talks. He wants land and a narrative of a successful 'liberation' and the power that goes with it. Every action he has taken from amassing troops while lying to the world for weeks, bombing indiscriminately in a free country, faking 'talks' while reorganising his attacks, bombing refugee escape routes, even threatening the rest of the world, the list is endless of this man's and his cohorts' shear inhumanity. How much more do you want before you see what he really is?

T00ts, without sounding funny, there is reason for Russians offensive if you are willing to listen to what they say. And if you must know Russia are negotiating and sent Zelensky their principles for peace. We may well have stopped the war by now had Zelensky not diverted things that were previously agreed. So no, I don't agree with Johnson it is like talking to a crocodile. The West talk to Russia and not compromise and demand and in return Russia doesn't compromise and demand. That isn't talking. That is dictating. Stop dictating and you may well get somewhere talking.

[B0ycey]

The news this morning that Putin is celebrating his success while condemning loads of people to a slow death from possible starvation simply confirms that he has absolutely no honour either in battle or anything else. The Russian people deserve so much better. What a sadness that they have been hoodwinked for so many years into making this evil man massively rich and powerful. I hope the rumours of some infighting amongst those of his own circle as they recognise the disgrace into which Putin is dragging Russia, develops into a need to de-activate him together with his bombs.

To be fair T00ts, they could surrender. They have had three opportunities now and each time they continue to fight.  If Russia went in, they could kill them all I guess but they would also have high casualties. It does make more sense to do what they are doing and just surrounding them and asking for them to take the fight on or stay put. Besides, I hear there is talks on their survival and if there is a trade off of POWs Russia may well give them safe passage given they get their people back whilst gaining the port without a bullet being fired.

[T00ts]

So he is a monster for not ordering a final slaughter in the catacombs!!??
All the Ukrainians have to do is surrender.
Its not the Russians that video themselves, kneecaping, eye gouging and throat cutting POW's

You have done nothing but gloat over every 'proof' you have found of Putin's success. There is nothing about this that is right on any side but like I have said before there are no bomb sites in Russia. 

It is more important than that. I was Zelensky's red line for ending talks when talks are the only way this conflict will end. By pinning them in, their freedom becomes a bargain chip I guess. They don't need to surrender they can stay put and starve. It was a tactic used in Stalingrad.

... and that makes it OK? Like Boris said - how do you have 'talks' with a crocodile that has it's teeth around your leg? Putin doesn't want talks. He wants land and a narrative of a successful 'liberation' and the power that goes with it. Every action he has taken from amassing troops while lying to the world for weeks, bombing indiscriminately in a free country, faking 'talks' while reorganising his attacks, bombing refugee escape routes, even threatening the rest of the world, the list is endless of this man's and his cohorts' shear inhumanity. How much more do you want before you see what he really is?