What is really happening in the Ukraine Conflict?

[cromwell]

Go ahead, explain why "Name one bit of Russia, invaded by NATO." is relevant to NATO being a threat.

What I will explain is the hilarity of Putin justifying the invasion by calling the Ukraine Nazis, who are the right wingers here,that you cannot see your flawed logic I cannot help you with.

Putin is the equivalent to Hitlers Germany here using the same excuses to justify the invasion,you then say exactly and conflate the whole issue

[Scott777]

Totally flawed logic,and no what he said is not irrelevant....you added two and two and made five

Go ahead, explain why  "Name one bit of Russia, invaded by NATO." is relevant to NATO being a threat.

[Scott777]

When there was no threat from Ukraine worth creating the reaction he now faces from all of his European neighbours. 

because it's him that is desperate to change the world order, and the west doesn't need telling twice, and because of that NATO gets bigger, and if countries want to avoid being the next Ukraine, then they need strong allies, and NATO doesn't have to invade them to make the point, Putin makes the point for them by making himself the threat.
As for ," has he invaded the U.K.", no, why would he ? As he said he is thinking of nuking  us if we get stroppy with him.

Yes, NATO allying with Ukraine was a threat.  What you call "strong allies" is just the apologist's attempt to justify NATO expansion.
Example of military exercises between NATO and Ukraine, (2021):

https://shape.nato.int/news-archive/2021/nato-allies-and-partners-ready-for-exercise-sea-breeze-21

[cromwell]

Exactly.  That's my point.  And so therefore it is not necessary for NATO to invade Russia, to consider NATO a threat to Russia.  That's why Good Old's point is irrelevant: "Name one bit of Russia, invaded by NATO."

Totally flawed logic,and no what he said is not irrelevant....you added two and two and made five

[Scott777]

So tell me scott when after Munich and Hitler took the rest of Czechoslovakia and then invaded Poland did he invade the UK? No but he was a threat nontheless.

Exactly.  That's my point.  And so therefore it is not necessary for NATO to invade Russia, to consider NATO a threat to Russia.  That's why Good Old's point is irrelevant: "Name one bit of Russia, invaded by NATO."

[Good old]

"Predatory neighbour" - is NATO not predatory?  If they enforce a no-fly zone, which must have the threat of shooting aircraft in a foreign country, such as Libya, is threatening to shoot aircraft not predatory?  So, this clear predator was moving into Ukraine, and Putin saw a threat.  But no, you seem to think only invasion is what counts.  So tell me, has Russia invaded the UK?  So how do you justify us assisting in the war?

When there was no threat from Ukraine worth creating the reaction he now faces from all of his European neighbours. The remarkable thing is even now ,no one is going to invade him, no one ever was, it would be pointless and he knows it, so he is either a prat or born predatory expansionist,  I don't think he is a prat
But if he thinks he wins then he really has made a mistake, because it's him that is desperate to change the world order, and the west doesn't need telling twice, and because of that NATO gets bigger, and if countries want to avoid being the next Ukraine, then they need strong allies, and NATO doesn't have to invade them to make the point, Putin makes the point for them by making himself the threat.
As for ," has he invaded the U.K.", no, why would he ? As he said he is thinking of nuking  us if we get stroppy with him. 

[Borchester]

I bet the figures you quote about self identity,

Possibly, but so is all census data.

Where are you getting your figures from?

[cromwell]

"Predatory neighbour" - is NATO not predatory?  If they enforce a no-fly zone, which must have the threat of shooting aircraft in a foreign country, such as Libya, is threatening to shoot aircraft not predatory?  So, this clear predator was moving into Ukraine, and Putin saw a threat.  But no, you seem to think only invasion is what counts.  So tell me, has Russia invaded the UK?  So how do you justify us assisting in the war?

So tell me scott when after Munich and Hitler took the rest of Czechoslovakia and then invaded Poland did he invade the UK? No but he was a threat nontheless.

It was the same excuse then protecting german minorities and Volkdeutsche as Putin is with Russian speakers.....read Sampans posts he admits that is the reason and the excuse for war.....sorry special operation,appeasement doesn't work.

[Scott777]

Name one bit of Russia, invaded by NATO. Or a country that belongs to NATO. The only thing NATO dominates is Russia's.  ability to expand its borders at the expense of others. NATO has never invaded Ukraine, How can that be compared to Russia, which has?  it seems to me Russia is not ,and rarely has been into any sort of cooperation outside of selling energy, let alone asking for armoury. I am clearly in favour of helping a European democracy defend its territory from the grasp of a predatory neighbour. If NATO, had ever invaded its members , for them to become members, you might have an argument. But no only Russia, has used that tactic.  And yes I do take sides

"Predatory neighbour" - is NATO not predatory?  If they enforce a no-fly zone, which must have the threat of shooting aircraft in a foreign country, such as Libya, is threatening to shoot aircraft not predatory?  So, this clear predator was moving into Ukraine, and Putin saw a threat.  But no, you seem to think only invasion is what counts.  So tell me, has Russia invaded the UK?  So how do you justify us assisting in the war?

[Sampanviking]

My figures come from the 2001 census, which states that ethnic Russians form 39% of the Luhansk and Donetsk Oblasts. It seems reasonable to extrapolate to the rest of the Donbas

I bet the figures you quote about self identity, as genetically they are all pretty much Russian and well over 80% speak Russian as there first language.
In 2001 identity was not an issue as all was still calm. There was little difference or advantage in being one or the other and the two counties were not in a wholly dissimilar position.
It started to fall apart in 2008 and came to a head in 2014. This is when identity politics started to count and those that openly identified as Russian sky rocketed by reaction to the surge of Ukrainian ultra nationalism.

[Scott777]

Absolute BS. Tell me where NATO has set one foot on Russian soil and threatened it?
Again, you don't know the first thing about Russia other than what you read.

Oh, ok Nick, since that's the game, tell me where Russia has set one foot on British soil and threatened it?  And if you can't, how do you justify pouring money into their government so they can fight Russia?

[Scott777]

 the aggressor here is Putins Russia.

There is more to it than who the aggressor is.  If you are sitting in a cafe with your mobile on the table, and someone takes it, and you try to grab it back, you are the aggressor.  That doesn't mean you did something wrong.  NATO expanded first, then entered Ukraine, and was influencing them, before Putin attacked.  You may think NATO acted pre-emptively, to prevent Russian expansion.  That's the same excuse as bombing Iraq as a pre-emptive act to prevent Sadam's missiles hitting us.  And, bye the way, do you have evidence of Putin's intentions?  If not, that's called a conspiracy theory.  😁

[Borchester]

Only in your dreams Borkie and the figures you have are just plain wrong, unless they refer to the percentage that have applied and taken up actual Russian citizenship, which would make sense. Same thing is happening in Kherson now, with massive queues to apply.

My figures come from the 2001 census, which states that ethnic Russians form 39% of the Luhansk and Donetsk Oblasts. It seems reasonable to extrapolate to the rest of the Donbas

[Sampanviking]

The figures I have are that between a 35% and 40% of the population of the Donbas are Russian, which means that the majority are Ukrainian.

There is little doubt that the Yanks are using this war as a way to bleed Russia and there is even less that the Russians have fallen for it hook, line and sinker. The Americans are spending dollars and Russia the blood of its young men.

The way things are going, it looks as though Putin has a choice between some sort of face saving peace or an invite to a meeting in one of those rooms with the slopping floors in the Lubyanka

Only in your dreams Borkie and the figures you have are just plain wrong, unless they refer to the percentage that have applied and taken up actual Russian citizenship, which would make sense. Same thing is happening in Kherson now, with massive queues to apply.

[Baff]

B
I was also utterly stunned to see this segment from Sky News that finally acknowledged that there is widespread support for the Russians in Ukrainian occupied Donbass

Yes i saw a Sky news report that did the same.
I too was surprised.

In todays news 38 Ukrainian soldiers surrendered. Locals conscripted into the Ukranian army, they will be fighting for Lugansk in future i expect.


There is definitely a change in the tone of reporting.
I think this is also being mirrored by a change in tone of diplomacy.

What a difference it makes when people think you are winning.