What is really happening in the Ukraine Conflict?

[Scott777]

Yet didnt invade Estonia ,Latvia or Lithuania which are on the Russian /Belurus border .

And of course Russian expansion into Ukraine should they take control of the country would put Poland ,Slovakia ,Hungary and Romania on the soviet border as well .

Well, if you have 10 sweeties, and a bigger boy takes one sweetie, you might not do anything, but if he keeps taking your sweeties, how many sweeties will you tolerate?  😁

I don't think Putin intends to make all of Ukraine part of Russia.  He may be neutralising it.

[Scott777]

Putin seemed to be searching for a reason to invade Ukraine for some time. 

How long?  NATO was expanding for some time, and getting involved in Ukraine since 2014.

[Barry]

I read a report that 500 Russian paras landed in Northern Syria (Qamishli) yesterday. This may be connected with the Ukraine war, but might be to deter Israel from attacking their loose ally, Iran. 

[srb7677]

I really don't understand why NATO can be seen as aggressive. Surely it is an organisation of countries with a view to protection. All this rhetoric of threat is surely just a ruse to justify Russia's invasion.

I agree that in conception NATO is a defensive alliance freely entered into by free countries and none of Russia's business.

But there remains the fact that NATO has waged an aggressive war against Serbia over Kosovo as recently as 1998.

This demonstrates that NATO can be used aggressively because it has been before. In propaganda terms that is a hostage to fortune that Putin can always cite. Especially since Serbia was considered a friend to Russia at the time.

Putin like all despots will use any propaganda advantage he can find. And the friends of this despot on this forum will no doubt do likewise.

[Streetwalker]

  If NATO had not expanded so much to the border of Russia (via Ukraine), I see no reason Putin would have invaded.

Yet didnt invade Estonia ,Latvia or Lithuania which are on the Russian /Belurus border . And of course Russian expansion into Ukraine should they take control of the country would put Poland ,Slovakia ,Hungary and Romania on the soviet border as well . If he really does have a gripe  with NATO on his border he has a problem not least getting his ships in and out of the black sea with Turkey controling the Bosphorus and NATO the maritime border that leads to the open seas 

Putin hasn't thought this through has he ? 

[T00ts]

Just a reminder, we bombed Iraq to protect us from Saddam's missiles.  That was lots of allied countries with a view to protection.  Well, that was part of the excuse. 

It's not about justice, it's about knowing that there are two sides, and how to stop them from fighting.  As I say, I'm not taking sides.  If NATO had not expanded so much to the border of Russia (via Ukraine), I see no reason Putin would have invaded.

That doesn't help me. Putin seemed to be searching for a reason to invade Ukraine for some time. He never suggested that NATO was the reason - his 'reason' was to rescue the East of Ukraine from Fascists. NATO was never mentioned as far as I can recall. It's all very one sided. Russian has wreaked havoc on even the part of Donbas etc that they vow to 'save'. They have destroyed it wholesale. Ukraine fighters are only protecting their own as far as I can tell and have not yet repaid Russia like for like. That would be a war surely. 
I can see no logic but wonder if the plot is to make Ukraine landlocked by controlling the coast? I don't think there is any chance that Putin will stop fighting his ego is at stake.

[Scott777]

I really don't understand why NATO can be seen as aggressive. Surely it is an organisation of countries with a view to protection. All this rhetoric of threat is surely just a ruse to justify Russia's invasion.

Just a reminder, we bombed Iraq to protect us from Saddam's missiles.  That was lots of allied countries with a view to protection.  Well, that was part of the excuse.  

It's not about justice, it's about knowing that there are two sides, and how to stop them from fighting.  As I say, I'm not taking sides.  If NATO had not expanded so much to the border of Russia (via Ukraine), I see no reason Putin would have invaded.

[Scott777]

It's obvious NATO had steadily enlarged since its inception . That does not make the reaction from Russia,  right in a moral sense or practical political sense. The fact remains since this invasion NATO has got bigger on the basis of Putin, showing his hand clearly enough to make the minds of new members up. And quiet frankly it's now clear he would have to take all of Ukraine, before he could say that country would not be a NATO member. Beyond that if he should annex Ukraine, making it  part of his Empire,he would still in effect face NATO countries as neighbours.
So it's not an order of events, that is the real problem, it's the reaction to events.  And the reaction has been wrong on any number of counts, not least the senseless slaughter of innocent men women and children of Ukraine, but also making NATO bigger and more determined to oppose any further expansion attempted by Putin. If it was ever an invasion of Russia, by NATO, he feared, how could an actual expansion of NATO have diminished that? Because he knew it would not happen , and never was going to happen I suggest.

No, NATO got bigger BEFORE Putin show his hand, BEFORE he invaded.  NATO allied with Ukraine BEFORE he invaded.  How do you know Putin will annex the whole of Ukraine?  If he does, maybe you would have a legitimate argument.

[T00ts]

I really don't understand why NATO can be seen as aggressive. Surely it is an organisation of countries with a view to protection. All this rhetoric of threat is surely just a ruse to justify Russia's invasion. 

[Scott777]

We all know that the UK has been training Ukrainian troops, they WERE a free country to do what they wanted. How does that justify Russia invading a FREE country?
If Russia has an issue with NATO why don't they invade a NATO country? Because they know they will get their pants pulled down and their arse well and truly kicked.

Training, and arming, and therefore in alliance.  Effectively Ukraine is part of NATO.  It's not about justification for invasion, it's about Russia seeing a threat and reacting.  Unless you have evidence that Putin would have invaded Ukraine BEFORE they allied with NATO, I must assume Russia would never have invaded.  Russia didn't have a big issue with NATO, until NATO allied with Ukraine.  Russia drew a line there.

[Scott777]

Russia deliberately sailed a fleet of warships through the English Channel, it flew fighter jets down the Irish sea several times, all of which was very provocative.
This is the kind of thing they do all the time, but I tell you they won't do it the moment because they know the RAF will blow them out of the sky.

Is the above not threatening enough for you?

Provocative, maybe.  Worrying, maybe.  A threat??  Not really, but which specific incident are you talking about?  In 2016, some came through international waters en route to Syria.  Not very threatening.  It also happened in January 2022.  Now compare it to NATO allying with Ukraine, which happened BEFORE January.  So, NATO (of which the UK is a member) allies with Ukraine, then Russia has some ships coming a bit close.  I don't see a good reason to take sides with NATO, on that basis.  It's a weak argument.

[Baff]

NATO is an organisation that free countries join. If Ukraine as a free country wishes to liaise with NATO surely that is their business. The only reason Putin dislikes it is because he wants unfettered access to expand Russian territory.

Problem here is that Ukraine is not a free country. It is a failed state.
With the less than half of Ukraine wishing to join NATO trying to force the other half to join NATO and the EU.
Something like half of Ukraine prefers Russia. But are not being allowed the freedom to join or ally with it.

Ukraine is absolutely not in any stretch of the imagination "a free country".
Far from it. 

[Good old]

Not on mere suspicion.  The alliance of Ukraine with NATO is a fact.

It is not his actions enlarging NATO.  It's the enlargement of NATO that led to his actions.  Again, people seem to struggle with the actual order of events.

It's obvious NATO had steadily enlarged since its inception . That does not make the reaction from Russia,  right in a moral sense or practical political sense. The fact remains since this invasion NATO has got bigger on the basis of Putin, showing his hand clearly enough to make the minds of new members up. And quiet frankly it's now clear he would have to take all of Ukraine, before he could say that country would not be a NATO member. Beyond that if he should annex Ukraine, making it  part of his Empire,he would still in effect face NATO countries as neighbours.
So it's not an order of events, that is the real problem, it's the reaction to events.  And the reaction has been wrong on any number of counts, not least the senseless slaughter of innocent men women and children of Ukraine, but also making NATO bigger and more determined to oppose any further expansion attempted by Putin. If it was ever an invasion of Russia, by NATO, he feared, how could an actual expansion of NATO have diminished that? Because he knew it would not happen , and never was going to happen I suggest.

[Nick]

Any evidence of Putin's plans?  Or is that another conspiracy theory?  I have provided evidence of NATO operations with Ukraine, and the expansion of NATO through Europe since WWII is historical fact.

We all know that the UK has been training Ukrainian troops, they WERE a free country to do what they wanted. How does that justify Russia invading a FREE country?
If Russia has an issue with NATO why don't they invade a NATO country? Because they know they will get their pants pulled down and their arse well and truly kicked.

[Nick]

Oh ok, Nick, so a couple of Russian people involved in dodgy stuff is the same as Russia threatening the UK?  🤣  Do you understand the word "suspect" or "suspected"?  But your hypocrisy is exposed.  On one hand, you think the only justification for Russia getting into a conflict is if NATO goes in and threatens them.  But on the other hand, you don't apply that to Russia, who has not come to the UK and threatened us, but yet you want us to help Ukraine attack Russians.  Take a good look at your double standard, and have a think about it.

Russia deliberately sailed a fleet of warships through the English Channel, it flew fighter jets down the Irish sea several times, all of which was very provocative.
This is the kind of thing they do all the time, but I tell you they won't do it the moment because they know the RAF will blow them out of the sky.

Is the above not threatening enough for you?