What is really happening in the Ukraine Conflict?

[Scott777]

Whether Nick is wrong, is highly debatable. What's wrong is what is described in this link.
https://www.ohchr.org/en/news/2022/06/ukraine-civilian-casualty-update-27-june-2022
This is wrong beyond all doubt,This is  Putins work, no part of Russia attacked or hurt, yet he kills his neighbours at this rate, and counting. If you take sides, and we do then reasons can be debated . But just being afraid does not make these figures anything other than wrong.
Big claims of what Ukraine would do, what NATO would do, and yet even with some improving support from outside, Ukraine struggles to repel his invasion, let alone be a serious threat to Russia, and NATO are frankly pussy footing around even the challenge he has set, let alone invade him.

Certainly those UN figures could be debated, but that's a separate thing.  It could have all been avoided, either by NATO, or by Ukraine negotiating or surrendering.  Or else, the options are to tell Putin off - naughty naughty - or keep pumping weapons into Ukraine have more war, and maybe a world war.  I hear Germany may be in dire straits in winter due to fuel shortage.

[Good old]

Of course you're done.  Because you're wrong.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity

Whether Nick is wrong, is highly debatable. What's wrong is what is described in this link.
https://www.ohchr.org/en/news/2022/06/ukraine-civilian-casualty-update-27-june-2022
This is wrong beyond all doubt,This is  Putins work, no part of Russia attacked or hurt, yet he kills his neighbours at this rate, and counting. If you take sides, and we do then reasons can be debated . But just being afraid does not make these figures anything other than wrong.
Big claims of what Ukraine would do, what NATO would do, and yet even with some improving support from outside, Ukraine struggles to repel his invasion, let alone be a serious threat to Russia, and NATO are frankly pussy footing around even the challenge he has set, let alone invade him.

[Scott777]

There was no revolution in 2014, there was an invasion.

Of course you're done.  Because you're wrong.

"The Revolution of Dignity, also known as the Euro-Maidan Revolution, took place in Ukraine in February 2014 at the end of the Euromaidan protests, when deadly clashes between protesters and the security forces in the Ukrainian capital Kyiv culminated in the ousting of elected President Viktor Yanukovych and the overthrow of the Ukrainian government."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity

[Nick]

Hopefully, you mean you're bored.

I'm bored of going round in circles with Scott I mean. I'll leave what's happening in Ukraine up to his disturbed mind
Just this section.

[Barry]

I'm done with this board. 🙄

Hopefully, you mean you're bored. 

[Nick]

How do you know the members of NATO did not force Ukraine to become allies?  There was a revolution in 2014.  Revolutions tend to be forceful.  The new government was conveniently pro-western.

NATO is not a defensive alliance.  It's a military alliance.  Didn't you know, militaries have the ability to be offensive.  How do you know NATO would not invade Russia in small bits at a time, over a long period?

There was no revolution in 2014, there was an invasion. What is the point? I'm done with this board. 🙄 

[Scott777]

NATO  has forced no nation to join it, it has not invaded a single nation to force that nation to join it. NATO is a defensive alliance.
So a comparison to Nazi Germany is a non starter.
No nation was going to invade Russia. What would such a thing achieve?Russia is to big to be subjugated so  other than a lethal dose of radio activity for all mankind. No other outcome would occur.  Putin has acted out of fear, that's clear, but not fear of being invaded. Changing world order is his long term aim, he has said as much, he started with Ukraine,, before he missed the boat. Because the fun really starts when he picks on a NATO country.
The best he can get outside of further expansion is to control Ukraine , but in effect create an up to date iron curtain. Certainly to be in a state of political and by and large trade  isolation .

How do you know the members of NATO did not force Ukraine to become allies?  There was a revolution in 2014.  Revolutions tend to be forceful.  The new government was conveniently pro-western.

NATO is not a defensive alliance.  It's a military alliance.  Didn't you know, militaries have the ability to be offensive.  How do you know NATO would not invade Russia in small bits at a time, over a long period?

[Scott777]

And has invading Ukraine stopped NATO countries from increasing aid to Ukraine, and NATO it's self actually enlarging on the rest of his borders?

NATO would have enlarged like this anyway, so that's irrelevant.  Aid is also irrelevant.  Money and weapons were already going there.  The difference is, now Russia will destroy or take some of those weapons.

[Baff]

Russia hasn't forced any nation to join it's defensive pact either.
What difference does that make to the threat you pose to your enemies?
Do you now trust them knowing that they haven't?

Are the Russian's just supposed to say to themselves, "hmm, my enemies are surrounding me militarily and recruiting, arming and training my neighbours against me, I guess they have good intentions to me."?

This is too foolish a proposition for me.
Don't get me wrong, good to have you batting for our team. But I think there are some sensible realities to understand.


One of which is that wars occur at the borders of empires/hegemony.
Constantly and consistently throughout history. Any expansion will eventually result in it being stopped. Because it won't ever stop until it is stopped.

And this is every bit as true for us as it is our rivals and enemies.

[Good old]

Did appeasing Hitler stop Hitler?
Did declaring war on Hitler stop Hitler getting closer to our borders and expanding Nazi control over Europe?

No.

We will have to see how this all plays out.
Right or wrong, they said they would do it and they did it. No one is surprised that they did it.
Everyone knows why they did it.

Where will it end? I don't really know.
I suspect in the Ukrainian seperatist regions being liberated.

But who knows?

NATO  has forced no nation to join it, it has not invaded a single nation to force that nation to join it. NATO is a defensive alliance. 
So a comparison to Nazi Germany is a non starter.
No nation was going to invade Russia. What would such a thing achieve?Russia is to big to be subjugated so  other than a lethal dose of radio activity for all mankind. No other outcome would occur.  Putin has acted out of fear, that's clear, but not fear of being invaded. Changing world order is his long term aim, he has said as much, he started with Ukraine,, before he missed the boat. Because the fun really starts when he picks on a NATO country.
The best he can get outside of further expansion is to control Ukraine , but in effect create an up to date iron curtain. Certainly to be in a state of political and by and large trade  isolation .

[Baff]

And has invading Ukraine stopped NATO countries from increasing aid to Ukraine, and NATO it's self actually enlarging on the rest of his borders?

Did appeasing Hitler stop Hitler?
Did declaring war on Hitler stop Hitler getting closer to our borders and expanding Nazi control over Europe?

No.

We will have to see how this all plays out.
Right or wrong, they said they would do it and they did it. No one is surprised that they did it.
Everyone knows why they did it.

Where will it end? I don't really know.
I suspect in the Ukrainian seperatist regions being liberated.

But who knows?

[Good old]

How long?  NATO was expanding for some time, and getting involved in Ukraine since 2014.

And has invading Ukraine stopped NATO countries from increasing aid to Ukraine, and NATO it's self actually enlarging on the rest of his borders?

[Good old]

Well, if you have 10 sweeties, and a bigger boy takes one sweetie, you might not do anything, but if he keeps taking your sweeties, how many sweeties will you tolerate?  😁

I don't think Putin intends to make all of Ukraine part of Russia.  He may be neutralising it.

So how many sweets did the Ukraine,s superior  size and weight enable them to take. .? By neutralising you mean unable to think or act without his permission.

[Baff]

I really don't understand why NATO can be seen as aggressive. Surely it is an organisation of countries with a view to protection. All this rhetoric of threat is surely just a ruse to justify Russia's invasion.

If your rival openly and vocally views you as a threat to him and he and all his mates surround your house with their guns in hand....
To defend themselves from you...
And arm your neighbours to do the same...

Should you worry? 
Should you feel threatened?

Of course you should.

It's perfectly obvious that NATO are anti Russia. 
Is in essence an anti Russian military alliance.


When the Axis invaded France, we invaded to kick them out.
Why?

Because their very presence there was a threat to us.

When USA invaded North Korea, China invaded to push them out.
Why?

Because their very presence there was  a threat to them.


Too many countries have invaded China through North Korea to ignore.
Too many countries have invaded the UK through France to ignore.
Too many countries have invaded Russia through Ukraine to ignore.


This was always going to happen as long as both or either NATO or the EU kept expanding into former Soviet territories.
A certainty. Just a matter of time.




Just as Putin won't stop until he is stopped.
Nor will NATO or the EU. 

[Nick]

Provocative, maybe.  Worrying, maybe.  A threat??  Not really, but which specific incident are you talking about?  In 2016, some came through international waters en route to Syria.  Not very threatening.  It also happened in January 2022.  Now compare it to NATO allying with Ukraine, which happened BEFORE January.  So, NATO (of which the UK is a member) allies with Ukraine, then Russia has some ships coming a bit close.  I don't see a good reason to take sides with NATO, on that basis.  It's a weak argument.

You can't sail through the Channel in international waters, it's too narrow, I t's either U.K. or French waters. There's your answer for Russia setting foot in NATO territory, 3 times actually. Your argument isn't weak, it's nonexistent.