Loyal to the flag.

[Thomas]

Sorry Thomas I know you hate us English but Scotland is part of the United Kingdom like it or not. Arrogance is no more an English trait than anyone else's. Everything isn't about you or Scotland in fact you didn't even feature in my thinking. My thoughts were the younger generation's response to the cry to arms if we were threatened. I realise it may be unlikely but that wasn't my point. Your post says a lot about your loyalty to the United nations that have nurtured both you and I. So I take it you would hide.

you asked a question and i gave an honest reply. I have to say toots , your further response to me is largely expected and totally predictable.

Sorry Thomas I know you hate us English

I no more hate the english people anymore than you and yours hate the europeans for wanting to leave the EU.

12 years ago , when i first joined this forums predesscessor , i had english people "demanding" i vote english parties like labour and conservative. I said no thanks , im voting snp. Predictably we had english forum members on meltdown crying anti english.

Fast forward to sporiting events like the football world cup. i had english people on this forum asking if i support england , i said no. I support scotland , and only scotland. Predictably i had english forum members on meltdown crying anti english.

Now today , on an imginary war scenario , i have an english person asking about "loyalty to their flag" and settling independence squabbles and uniting , clearly a reference to scottish indy , and when i say no , we have the predictable melt down and cries of anti englishness.

Do you not see how arrogant this sounds to a non english person  , these demands to settle independence "squabbles" as though my countires independence and nationality is less than yours ,And demands to once again pipe down jock and do as england tells you  wether its sport , war or politics?

I think the accusations of anti englishness say more about you and your countrymen and woman  , their fears , deep seated insecurity and grappling with their own identity and place in this modern world.

Why is it english people are incapable of doing anything without begging a scot to hold thier hand? I find it breathtaking , and a symptom of the deep seated problems your country appears to have.

Scotland is part of the United Kingdom like it or not.

It is , but that doesnt mean i have to accept it or agree with it.

Arrogance is no more an English trait than anyone else's.

It is indeed , but i dont see any other nation arrogantly telling me to pipe down jock , put your petty independence sqaubble to the side and show some loyalty to englands flag.

Everything isn't about you or Scotland in fact you didn't even feature in my thinking.

Clearly that isnt true , hence my point about you saying this in your op.....

Would we turn to the national flag, settle the differences on independence squabbles and unite in the face of a common enemy?

My thoughts were the younger generation's response to the cry to arms if we were threatened.

in terms of this forum , i am the younger generation . I would be of conscriptable age.

Your post says a lot about your loyalty to the United nations that have nurtured both you and I.

i grew up in thatchers glasgow , and it was this very lack of nurturing by a government scotland didnt elect and which party scotland has rejected at the ballot box for 60 odd years that in part turned my loyalty away from that imaginary nation you talk of.


Your point about would an imaginary foe like russia on englands doorstep pipe the colonials down and make them loyal in the face of adversity to greater england( yookay) and not only am i giving you an honest response , im saying history shows that is rarely if ever the case.

Did ireland throw in the towel and ask to come back to mother england during world war 2 in the face of the nazis? No .

During the first world war , not only did many irish suport the germans and accept guns from them , but they used englands difficulty as irelands opportunity to win independence.

The ukrainians sided with the nazis during world war two as i understand it to fight against soviet oppression.

Irish regiments , when the uk consisted of ireland , during the wars of the 18 th century played a great part in French armies for exmaple the battle of fontenoy.

Throughout the 17th and 18 th centuries , scottish soldiers fought on frances side despite the union of the crowns in 1603.

When an empire of multi national state faces a common enemy , history shows its more likely , not less likely , for the minority parts who wish independence to take adavantge of events rather than pipe down and know their place.

Sorry if you dont like my answer , but i have given an honest reply which is more than your country has done with us over the years.

So I take it you would hide.

I wouldnt fight for your country in any way shape or form. If i had to , i would fight for my own , and if not , i have already said i would fight for a european army , or a scottish army part of nato , or in either French or irish regmients .

As i said , i would pay to watch british army consriptors going into staunch independence supporting glaswegian or dundonian council estates , Irish republican Carfin near motherwell , west belfast or even places like londons tower hamlets. I think there would be more bloodshed trying to consript these popualtions than what the russians would cause racking up on dover beach.

Never going to happen though .

[Borchester]

I have probably said this before but...

In 1914 my grandfather was a reservist and, according to family legend, was not best pleased to be called back to the colours. He had no idea why he had been called back from a cushti one in the Post Office, but he assured grandma that it would not take long to sort out the Frogs (granddad was a highly intelligent man but not overly into politics) and that it would all be over by the time the troop train reached Dover.

He was solidly English, but as Deppity said, his first loyalty was to his mates and not overly impressed by jingoism or journalists.

My father and various uncles were in WW2 and the retreat from empire. None of them gave a toss about the enemy (except for the Mau Mau who tortured cattle and who had a rough time when captured), they just wanted the business over and to go home.

[T00ts]

I guess this is aimed at me.

Here is my national flag toots.




I dont know how many times it needs spelling out that the united kingdom isnt a nation , its flag isnt my flag , its a multi national state comprising of different nations with our own flags and identities. Deppity dawgs post probably sums most things up , but i personally think it not only offensive , but highly arrogant , with respect , any english person would lecture a scot irish or welsh and ask if we would cast aside our nationality to fight for yours.

In the context of ukraine , i suppose what you are asking is similar to a soviet russian asking a lithuanian or ukrainian if they would cast aside thier petty nationalities and fight for the hammer and sickle , which is the equavalent of the butchers apron as it is known in scotland.

Historically , from around the 6th century to the last armed uprising of 1820 , some 1300 years of history , england and scotland have been each others common enemy as you put it , and outside of these islands , englands great rival and common enemy  , France, was an ally of scotland for the best part of 8 centuries. Some of the oldest regiments in the French army were the scottish reigments like the scots guards and the scottish men at arms , and something i didnt know till recent years , they were only disbanded in the mid nineteenth century.

Moving away from uncomfortable historical fact , i dont think any enemy would threaten these islands in the way you mention , as we would be in the depth of nucelar war if say a russian or chinese army was moveing across the european continent.

England and scotland in that scenario would be a small part of a larger NATO force ,or as boycey has hinted , wether its unpalatable to you or anyone else on here , a european force.

Let me return the question to you toots. Would yout fellow countrymen cast aside their petty loyalties to england/brexit and fight under a european army against a common enemy under "the flag"?

Sorry Thomas I know you hate us English but Scotland is part of the United Kingdom like it or not. Arrogance is no more an English trait than anyone else's. Everything isn't about you or Scotland in fact you didn't even feature in my thinking. My thoughts were the younger generation's response to the cry to arms if we were threatened. I realise it may be unlikely but that wasn't my point. Your post says a lot about your loyalty to the United nations that have nurtured both you and I. So I take it you would hide.

[DeppityDawg]

I have no doubt what you say is correct regarding professional soldiers but in the context of the Ukraine or in theory here as T00ts op you are talking of volunteers and or conscripts.


I don't doubt ultimately they'll be fighting for their mates and blokes next to them but their reasons for doing so  would be entirely different under certain circumstances.

Fecking auld pensioners 

I thought I was clear enough,.but I'll clarify. First, unless by conscripts and volunteers you mean some kind of non aligned militia, I was taking as read that these "conscripts" would be incorporated by or under the direct control of the regular Army, in the model of the Territorial forces, with officers and NCOs drawn from the regular Army as in the past, and would therefore be exposed to the regimental system and culture of the British Army model one way or the other. By "inexperienced" I meant those whether volunteers or conscripted who decide to fight for notions other than it being a vocational choice, since if the country were under threat, any of those with prior military service would presumably already have been recalled by the Regular or Army reserve if eligible. Either way, my point was that whatever causes people to fight (for whatever cause or country that may be) in the first place is seldom what motivates them when the reality becomes clear. I don't think being in Kiev or Kingston upon Thames changes that much. The point about flags was clear enough. 

Secondly, Toots I think was (unless I misread her) refering to "our shores" and the UK being under threat, so that was the context of my reply

[Sheepy]

I for one would pay to watch the yookay government try and conscript the average joe public in this day and age.

That boat has long sailed. I can see it now rousing speeches from the Westminster party about freedom and democracy is under threat, when they have proved it is under threat by themselves mostly

[Thomas]

I can understand that totally but I was thinking how the ordinary chap in the street might feel/respond if conscription was found to be necessary. Are we at the point where we all expect professional forces to step up no matter what?

I for one would pay to watch the yookay government try and conscript the average joe public in this day and age. 

[Thomas]

Would we turn to the national flag, settle the differences on independence squabbles and unite in the face of a common enemy? Would the cry go up 'your nation needs you' with a universal response to protect our shores or are we now too soft and spineless after so long free from war here?

I guess this is aimed at me.

Here is my national flag toots.




I dont know how many times it needs spelling out that the united kingdom isnt a nation , its flag isnt my flag , its a multi national state comprising of different nations with our own flags and identities. Deppity dawgs post probably sums most things up , but i personally think it not only offensive , but highly arrogant , with respect , any english person would lecture a scot irish or welsh and ask if we would cast aside our nationality to fight for yours.

In the context of ukraine , i suppose what you are asking is similar to a soviet russian asking a lithuanian or ukrainian if they would cast aside thier petty nationalities and fight for the hammer and sickle , which is the equavalent of the butchers apron as it is known in scotland.

Historically , from around the 6th century to the last armed uprising of 1820 , some 1300 years of history , england and scotland have been each others common enemy as you put it , and outside of these islands , englands great rival and common enemy  , France, was an ally of scotland for the best part of 8 centuries. Some of the oldest regiments in the French army were the scottish reigments like the scots guards and the scottish men at arms , and something i didnt know till recent years , they were only disbanded in the mid nineteenth century.

Moving away from uncomfortable historical fact , i dont think any enemy would threaten these islands in the way you mention , as we would be in the depth of nucelar war if say a russian or chinese army was moveing across the european continent.

England and scotland in that scenario would be a small part of a larger NATO force ,or as boycey has hinted , wether its unpalatable to you or anyone else on here , a european force.

Let me return the question to you toots. Would yout fellow countrymen cast aside their petty loyalties to england/brexit and fight under a european army against a common enemy under "the flag"?

[cromwell]

I won't answer the questions as to whether our nation or our divided western society is worth fighting for any more. But as far as these island are concerned, I'm not sure which flag you think would "unite" us? For the British Army, even in peacetime, it was more common for Scottish or Welsh Regiments to fly the Saltire or the Welsh Red dragon, or have those motifs on vehicles, more often than the Union flag itself. Even in English Regiments, the Cross of St George was at least as common. On operations that didn't change to any degree.

But I would say that, in general, these flags and/or Regimental insignias are for reasons of the "identity" of its bearers, rather than for any notion of fighting for "lands of our fathers" or fabled histories. Some (the inexperienced) might fight for "democracy" or notions of freedom from oppression. You might 'serve' your country. But when push comes to shove, most don't really fight to protect shores, cities or nations. For trained soldiers, especially those with any service behind them, loyalties are bound closely with and are firstly to their Regiment. Because whatever you start out fighting for, you always end up fighting for the men next to you.

I have no doubt what you say is correct regarding professional soldiers but in the context of the Ukraine or in theory here as T00ts op you are talking of volunteers and or conscripts.


I don't doubt ultimately they'll be fighting for their mates and blokes next to them but their reasons for doing so  would be entirely different under certain circumstances.

[Borchester]

I can understand that totally but I was thinking how the ordinary chap in the street might feel/respond if conscription was found to be necessary. Are we at the point where we all expect professional forces to step up no matter what?

I imagine that the average conscript would feel extremely pissed off because if he had wanted to fight he would have volunteered instead of waiting to be conscripted

[T00ts]

I won't answer the questions as to whether our nation or our divided western society is worth fighting for any more. But as far as these island are concerned, I'm not sure which flag you think would "unite" us? For the British Army, even in peacetime, it was more common for Scottish or Welsh Regiments to fly the Saltire or the Welsh Red dragon, or have those motifs on vehicles, more often than the Union flag itself. Even in English Regiments, the Cross of St George was at least as common. On operations that didn't change to any degree.

But I would say that, in general, these flags and/or Regimental insignias are for reasons of the "identity" of its bearers, rather than for any notion of fighting for "lands of our fathers" or fabled histories. Some (the inexperienced) might fight for "democracy" or notions of freedom from oppression. You might 'serve' your country. But when push comes to shove, most don't really fight to protect shores, cities or nations. For trained soldiers, especially those with any service behind them, loyalties are bound closely with and are firstly to their Regiment. Because whatever you start out fighting for, you always end up fighting for the men next to you.

I can understand that totally but I was thinking how the ordinary chap in the street might feel/respond if conscription was found to be necessary. Are we at the point where we all expect professional forces to step up no matter what?

[DeppityDawg]

I have been impressed by little in the Russian v Ukraine battle, except in the conscription of all the Ukrainian men and their bravery in answering the call. It has made me wonder what it would be like if Russia or any other nation (even little Macron) suddenly turned their missiles and guns on us, and just what we would do.

Would we turn to the national flag, settle the differences on independence squabbles and unite in the face of a common enemy? Would the cry go up 'your nation needs you' with a universal response to protect our shores or are we now too soft and spineless after so long free from war here?

I won't answer the questions as to whether our nation or our divided western society is worth fighting for any more. But as far as these island are concerned, I'm not sure which flag you think would "unite" us? For the British Army, even in peacetime, it was more common for Scottish or Welsh Regiments to fly the Saltire or the Welsh Red dragon, or have those motifs on vehicles, more often than the Union flag itself. Even in English Regiments, the Cross of St George was at least as common. On operations that didn't change to any degree.

But I would say that, in general, these flags and/or Regimental insignias are for reasons of the "identity" of its bearers, rather than for any notion of fighting for "lands of our fathers" or fabled histories. Some (the inexperienced) might fight for "democracy" or notions of freedom from oppression. You might 'serve' your country. But when push comes to shove, most don't really fight to protect shores, cities or nations. For trained soldiers, especially those with any service behind them, loyalties are bound closely with and are firstly to their Regiment. Because whatever you start out fighting for, you always end up fighting for the men next to you.

[Borchester]

Can't fault the Ukrainians they have proved to be stronger stuff than was originally thought.

Could the same be said of here? I've no doubt some would rise to the occasion but like Ukrainians I doubt it,but would love to be proved wrong.

Can't see why not.

If push came to shove, most of us would grumble loudly and think quietly that we ought to go and do our bit.

Or you kids anyway. I will be cheering you on and handing out the white feathers.

[Streetwalker]

It is only a point of view if it cannot be backed up with facts, flag waving is having to have substance behind it, show me the substance?

Dont worry Sheppy , we have got it covered 

[Sheepy]

That's a point of view that worries me.

It is only a point of view if it cannot be backed up with facts, flag waving is having to have substance behind it, show me the substance? 

[T00ts]

The flag that stands for nothing when it comes to its own nation. yet it is waved around when it comes to the rest of the world when it suits.

That's a point of view that worries me.