Hands up

[T00ts]

Knowing and proving it were two different things and people had families to support,mortgages to pay it might seem easy looking in but it's never that simple.

Like I said easy to pile it all on unions,there were more than a few in management positions who weren't crooks but crucially were criminally incompetent.

Oh yes I don't doubt that. It is possibly still true. I was just watching the Post Office debacle and the poor Post Masters who lost everything on the incompetence and downright dishonesty of Management one of whom has the audacity to wear a clerical collar.. It seems it will never end.

[cromwell]

So they were crooks. It begs the question of why if it was common knowledge, you all didn't get together and shop them. There are crooks in all walks of life I guess, I think Thatcher saw that the Unions were largely crooks too with really only one aim of bringing down Government. Yes the workers needed strength to get a fair deal but they had got out of hand and as far as I could see at the time really didn't care what happened to anyone. There were some very rough Union leaders around then as I remember, and they never lost out, only the working men/women.

Knowing and proving it were two different things and people had families to support,mortgages to pay it might seem easy looking in but it's never that simple.

Like I said easy to pile it all on unions,there were more than a few in management positions who weren't crooks but crucially were criminally incompetent.

[T00ts]

Can't argue with that,but a good example was one company I worked for had a policy that any shop floor pilfering would result in the offenders being sacked and pursued to the nth degree,nothing wrong there you might say but the senior figure behind that policy in cahoots with another but junior relieved the company of many tens of thousands.

It was an open secret amongst a handful of us what had gone on,the junior only was prosecuted, the senior saw to it that evidence given ensured they didn't go down and they were supplied with excellent references that when it all died down saw them get an excellent position elsewhere.

So they were crooks. It begs the question of why if it was common knowledge, you all didn't get together and shop them. There are crooks in all walks of life I guess, I think Thatcher saw that the Unions were largely crooks too with really only one aim of bringing down Government. Yes the workers needed strength to get a fair deal but they had got out of hand and as far as I could see at the time really didn't care what happened to anyone. There were some very rough Union leaders around then as I remember, and they never lost out, only the working men/women.

[cromwell]

This is where we are poles apart but then our life experiences are too so it's hardly surprising.

Can't argue with that,but a good example was one company I worked for had a policy that any shop floor pilfering would result in the offenders being sacked and pursued to the nth degree,nothing wrong there you might say but the senior figure behind that policy in cahoots with another but junior relieved the company of many tens of thousands.

It was an open secret amongst a handful of us what had gone on,the junior only was prosecuted, the senior saw to it that evidence given ensured they didn't go down and they were supplied with excellent references that when it all died down saw them get an excellent position elsewhere.

[T00ts]

That's a one sided picture you paint there T00ts,were there instances of Union abuses?.....sure and I witnessed them first hand but I also witnessed first hand appalling management and not in the public sector I might add.

People in positions of power to make or break (usually break) by their sheer incompetence, nepotism,amateurs in the extreme in positions where they were making decisions that could be bettered by a four year old.

This is where we are poles apart but then our life experiences are too so it's hardly surprising.

[cromwell]

I'm not sure that is true. We were already in the EU when Margaret Thatcher became PM. As my memory serves the EU were instrumental in providing incentives in poorer countries that encouraged industries to move where labour was cheaper. After the mess that Wilson in his 2 terms divided only by Ted Heath, and Callaghan made of everything we were in massive debt yet again and the Nationalised industries were being run by the Unions. We were a mess. Nationalisation was inept and the only answer was to put it out to people who knew how to run things and get some money into the coffers.

That's a one sided picture you paint there T00ts,were there instances of Union abuses?.....sure and I witnessed them first hand but I also witnessed first hand appalling management and not in the public sector I might add.

People in positions of power to make or break (usually break) by their sheer incompetence, nepotism,amateurs in the extreme in positions where they were making decisions that could be bettered by a four year old.

[patman post]

National Infrastructure and Utilities should be there to enable growth and development, not profit centers for others that only inhibit and restrict the businesses of others.
There are other ways to build in worthwhile incentives and investment without just giving them away at a rock bottom price on the basis of promises that were never delivered on by the new owners afterwards.

And Russia is a good example of how this can be done...

[T00ts]

Most of the privatisations of the Margaret Thatcher / John Major's era had unintended consequences. The privatisations were supposed to 'roll back state control' and turn us into a nation of voter-shareholders. But not surprisingly a lot of the new shareholders cashed in their windfalls and so the shares quickly accumulated into holdings by big companies and many of these were taken over by foreign owners, including governments. So now many of our state-owned services and utilities are now foreign owned, and some by foreign governments - for example EDF.

British Telecom was, I think, the first major privatisation, and that was successful and has remained so, but it has been a much more mixed picture with the rest - remember the Railtrack fiasco.

It's ironic how much hoo-haa and anger was whipped up over our membership of the EU, when the export of our former nationalised industries was already in full swing and had little to do with our membership of the EU.

I'm not sure that is true. We were already in the EU when Margaret Thatcher became PM. As my memory serves the EU were instrumental in providing incentives in poorer countries that encouraged industries to move where labour was cheaper. After the mess that Wilson in his 2 terms divided only by Ted Heath, and Callaghan made of everything we were in massive debt yet again and the Nationalised industries were being run by the Unions. We were a mess. Nationalisation was inept and the only answer was to put it out to people who knew how to run things and get some money into the coffers. 

[HDQQ]

Most of the privatisations of the Margaret Thatcher / John Major's era had unintended consequences. The privatisations were supposed to 'roll back state control' and turn us into a nation of voter-shareholders. But not surprisingly a lot of the new shareholders cashed in their windfalls and so the shares quickly accumulated into holdings by big companies and many of these were taken over by foreign owners, including governments. So now many of our state-owned services and utilities are now foreign owned, and some by foreign governments - for example EDF.

British Telecom was, I think, the first major privatisation, and that was successful and has remained so, but it has been a much more mixed picture with the rest - remember the Railtrack fiasco.

It's ironic how much hoo-haa and anger was whipped up over our membership of the EU, when the export of our former nationalised industries was already in full swing and had little to do with our membership of the EU.

[cromwell]

I'm not totally convinced things would be much different (apart from the cost) if the Falklands war hadn't propelled that bloody woman to superstardom.

Like you I have memories of 1976, blazing hot sun, and standpipes in the streets.

The water boards, like the electricity boards, were run by men who collected salaries barely larger than a decent size city's bank managers, and to ok gongs and amazing pensions as their compensation.

But their planning was often dire.

Of course, privatising water led to the boss having a take home pay and pension to rival abramovich, and the companies diversified into luxury resorts instead of focussing on clean water, they drilled into aquefers and dried out water tables without giving a shit and prices rose a hundredfold but the planning failures if their disinterest seem to me little different to last centurys planning failures through lack of resources...

Well I dunno John I suppose it depends where you live,we used to have excellent water supplied if there was a leak and it was reported they were out fixing it the following day.

Whereas now we have northwest water,they do adverts exhorting us to save water because it's a precious resource,it might be in the Sahara but not here in the rainy northwest.

Now if you report a leak as I did recently three weeks and several calls later and they still hadn't arrived so bad the road was in danger of collapse never mind the wasted water.

They don't give a stuff about investment but do fancy salaries and paying out dividends.

[Sampanviking]

National Infrastructure and Utilities should be there to enable growth and development, not profit centers for others that only inhibit and restrict the businesses of others.
There are other ways to build in worthwhile incentives and investment without just giving them away at a rock bottom price on the basis of promises that were never delivered on by the new owners afterwards.

[johnofgwent]

All those who still think Maggies sale of the utilities was a good idea,at the risk of boring people but it was more short termism and now the chickens have come home to roost.

Hostages to Russian energy and foreign owned utility companies,the lack of forward planning and investment that saw the mines shut,coal fired power stations closed but no long term plans to secure our energy needs.....but TBF that last part wasn't all down to Thatcher.

I'm not totally convinced things would be much different (apart from the cost) if the Falklands war hadn't propelled that bloody woman to superstardom.

Like you I have memories of 1976, blazing hot sun, and standpipes in the streets.

The water boards, like the electricity boards, were run by men who collected salaries barely larger than a decent size city's bank managers, and to ok gongs and amazing pensions as their compensation.

But their planning was often dire.

Of course, privatising water led to the boss having a take home pay and pension to rival abramovich, and the companies diversified into luxury resorts instead of focussing on clean water, they drilled into aquefers and dried out water tables without giving a shit and prices rose a hundredfold but the planning failures if their disinterest seem to me little different to last centurys planning failures through lack of resources...

[cromwell]

It was a grand day out for the Spivs and turned us into as much of an Oligarchy as those countries we like to point disparagingly at. Why do you think certain gentlemen of that ilk from those countries felt so at home here.

Yes I do understand your point here,perhaps you think I look disparagingly on the Russians or Chinese.....I don't but do their leadership.

Its true that once the iron curtain fell there was a lost opportunity which is why we are where we are now,sadly ordinary Russians didn't benefit and make their own choices.

I've no time for Vlad or Biden for that matter ,who is benefiting from this war or special operation certainly not ordinary Ukrainians or Russians.

Anyway back on topic this country and the short sighted idiots we elect.

[Sampanviking]

It was a grand day out for the Spivs and turned us into as much of an Oligarchy as those countries we like to point disparagingly at. Why do you think certain gentlemen of that ilk from those countries felt so at home here.

[cromwell]

Good thinking Toots.

As you have said, we have problems storing gas in this country. Where do you want the government to build the new gasometers, in your front or back garden?

Really Borky? We had a gas storage facility at Rough which held a nine day reserve and the govt let it be closed and were warned of the possible consequences......this is what I mean when I say we've been blighted by such short termism in this country for decades.
You don't need gasometers you need large storage facilities like Rough.

The French have a 90 day back up store,there are discussions going on now around fuel rationing in this country.

This is what I mean Borky in that we've been blighted by this crap since the days of Maggoes great sell off by all govts.

Those in power should make their priority the defence of the realm and safeguarding the essentials like the utilities.

What do we have? all mostly foreign owned including the rail network and we want net zero,the roads are a shambles full of bloody potholes and despite being told of the dangers of (less than) smart motorways they carry on regardless......there's one not far from me being transformed,it was going to be a smart motorway but apparently it will be a digital motorway,wtf is a digital motorway.

Well its a name change to fool the plebs,this is the problem Borky ,still you have a goood laugh.......till the lights go out.