Is anything true?

[Good old]

Is anything true?  You are born. You die. Is anything you are told true,? Can only be quantified by outcomes.

[cromwell]

I think you're getting confused

Well being a daft old bugger I sometimes do,and yeah get what you've saying. 

[DeppityDawg]

So you originally said you didn't want to discuss because liberals got emotional when faced with the realities of war and I was pointing out well I hope you know what I was pointing out 😧

I think you're getting confused because you're mixing up my comments between two threads. In the "whats going on thread" I said that I wasn't going to take any further part because it had sunk to emotional reactions [between posters]. Looking at where that thread has gone since, it looks like I was correct

In this thread, I was referring to liberal angst in general - as I've said before, "liberals" are not necessarily left leaning, they can be conservative too. Over the years, whether it was Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria or now Ukraine, the comments almost always seem to come from the same playbook. Some posters, who were happy to cry foul when Western weapons killed civilians in Afghanistan, are now lecturing others on the inaccuracy of artillery strikes in Ukraine, while those who are now outraged about civilian casualties in Mauripol or Kiev, never appeared to have the same anger about civilians killed in Kabul or Basra

What I meant here about pulling out of the discussion [about wars thousands of miles away, "in a wine bar or a living room" aka the internet] is because it is utterly futile. It makes no difference what experience or technical knowledge you apply to an argument. Like pointing out what weapons cannot physically do, or pointing out the defensive stance of vehicles in a picture that someone is telling me were "attacking". None of this matters, because people already believe what they want to believe before they've even read anyone elses reply. You cannot reason with people who have already made up their minds

All these threads go the same way Cromwell. The thread title was "is anything true". I guess the simple answer is that everything you believe is true, and everything you don't believe is false

[cromwell]

Well if you were taking the piss, then you lost me. You used Iraq as an example to counter pose against me calling out middle class western liberals. Look. Most Middle Eastern countries are theocracies, not democracies. They barely even have a "liberal middle class". In some countries over there, "liberal" means they'll shoot you for breaking their stone age laws, instead of beheading you or stoning you to death. The Arab Spring? Look how that went. How many true democracies can you name in the Eastern half of the world?

There isn't an equivalent of the English middle class or the western metropolitan elite in these countries. The hate most of these countries feel towards the west is based on the perceived western disrespect and antagonism towards their religion, not about western notions of "freedom". These are the least "free" societies on earth, and are about as far away from hedonist liberals as it's possible to get.

Yes I know all that,the point I was trying to make is emotion and they apparently had it by the bucket load when faced by things the liberals are supposed to get emotional about too.

Bloody hell Im getting confused now, my old man was in Iraq though he alternated  between calling it that,Mesopotamia or more often Messpot.

He always said them (and others) had no control, at a funeral they'd wail,hit themselves around the head scream like bloody banshees he said.

So you originally said you didn't want to discuss because liberals got emotional when faced with the realities of war and I was pointing out well I hope you know what I was pointing out 😧

[DeppityDawg]

Oh blimey some crossed wires here,I'm not ashamed of my old man or his generation,far from it and am well aware of some of the shortcomings in our society.

What I was doing was poking fun at you describing liberals who only exist in the west apparently and become emotional when confronted by things that are happening places like the Ukraine .


What I was illustrating and obviously failing to do was showing how back then those obviously not from the modern west acted the way you describe said liberals.

My old man was a product of his time and as a kid a bloody hard time as you are of yours and me mine.

No I haven't had to face the prospect of hordes trying to kill me as you,he and so many others have whilst serving in HM forces.

I have the greatest respect for those that have and the demons they may have to live with as a result,I was though taking the pee out of your blanket description of liberals.

I would've hoped from past exchanges you'd recognise I wouldn't denigrate those that have served politicians for sure but not the poor buggers facing the action.

Well if you were taking the piss, then you lost me. You used Iraq as an example to counter pose against me calling out middle class western liberals. Look. Most Middle Eastern countries are theocracies, not democracies. They barely even have a "liberal middle class". In some countries over there, "liberal" means they'll shoot you for breaking their stone age laws, instead of beheading you or stoning you to death. The Arab Spring? Look how that went. How many true democracies can you name in the Eastern half of the world? 

There isn't an equivalent of the English middle class or the western metropolitan elite in these countries. The hate most of these countries feel towards the west is based on the perceived western disrespect and antagonism towards their religion, not about western notions of "freedom". These are the least "free" societies on earth, and are about as far away from hedonist liberals as it's possible to get.

[Sheepy]

Exactly as RT was saying caught red handed again.

[cromwell]

Oh I wouldn't worry to much about that Cromwell. We have whole swathes of our education system where free.speech is now virtually banned, populated by an absurdly privileged generation of students who've never been exposed to any danger in their lives, busily going about "reimagining" that historical British Empire narrative for you. It won't be long before gender neutral fighter pilots won the Battle of Britain and black lesbians stormed.the beaches at Normandy. We are already half way to making the men (and it's always going to be the White men now) of your father's generation into the actual enemy of "progressives*, regardless of which country they came from

Forget about the real things that matter. I hope you don't fall ill and need an ambulance or need the police in a hurry, because you could be waiting hours for either of them to turn up. Lose concentration for a moment however and commit a "thought crime".of the type you're accusing your father of, and they'll be there faster than you can say *racist*

So yeah. There was a time when, deep down, we knew and accepted that the world was an imperfect place, where we tried to manage the scale of our problems, not try to create a whole set of new ones by blaming our own friends and relatives for everything that was wrong with the world. And yes too, men of your fathers generation (and ours too) were imperfect. But I'd sooner stand next to them every time than any of todays shower of sh*t

Oh blimey some crossed wires here,I'm not ashamed of my old man or his generation,far from it and am well aware of some of the shortcomings in our society.

What I was doing was poking fun at you describing liberals who only exist in the west apparently and become emotional when confronted by things that are happening places like the Ukraine .


What I was illustrating and obviously failing to do was showing how back then those obviously not from the modern west acted the way you describe said liberals.

My old man was a product of his time and as a kid a bloody hard time as you are of yours and me mine.

No I haven't had to face the prospect of hordes trying to kill me as you,he and so many others have whilst serving in HM forces.

I have the greatest respect for those that have and the demons they may have to live with as a result,I was though taking the pee out of your blanket description of liberals.

I would've hoped from past exchanges you'd recognise I wouldn't denigrate those that have served politicians for sure but not the poor buggers facing the action.

[johnofgwent]

Oh I wouldn't worry to much about that Cromwell. We have whole swathes of our education system where free.speech is now virtually banned, populated by an absurdly privileged generation of students who've never been exposed to any danger in their lives, busily going about "reimagining" that historical British Empire narrative for you. It won't be long before gender neutral fighter pilots won the Battle of Britain and black lesbians stormed.the beaches at Normandy. We are already half way to making the men (and it's always going to be the White men now) of your father's generation into the actual enemy of "progressives*, regardless of which country they came from

Forget about the real things that matter. I hope you don't fall ill and need an ambulance or need the police in a hurry, because you could be waiting hours for either of them to turn up. Lose concentration for a moment however and commit a "thought crime".of the type you're accusing your father of, and they'll be there faster than you can say *racist*

So yeah. There was a time when, deep down, we knew and accepted that the world was an imperfect place, where we tried to manage the scale of our problems, not try to create a whole set of new ones by blaming our own friends and relatives for everything that was wrong with the world. And yes too, men of your fathers generation (and ours too) were imperfect. But I'd sooner stand next to them every time than any of todays shower of sh*t

It's funny you should say that DD

And I mean funny strange, not funny har har .....

The imperial war museum has details of a very white man who was pivotal in flying his plane wingtip under wingtip of the buzz bombs. His CV looks like something out of a "boys own" comic from the fifties.

I know of him from dad watching a pilot do it over the fields outside Ilford, and telling me while he was writing up his memories for my brother's kid's school project... I went off and looked the guy up.

Several years ago when the last round of "the only soldiers we make films about now are the black ones" mantras were put about, some piece of shit tried to attribute this achievement to a black guy I seriously doubt ever saw the English channel.

I wasn't having that and I went head to head with the racist bastard in the chat channel quoting the imperial war museum records.

It took MONTHS before Wikipedia's "editorial board" accepted the truth. If one of the editors had not chosen to actually contact the Imperial War Museum and they had not emailed back to confirm the truth I'd be President Trump's website developer now because that would be the only way I'd be allowed a web presence of any kind by the ONLY black lives matter scum ...

[DeppityDawg]

You mean the Iraqis et al weren't outraged at Bush and Bliar so a massive slice of people who disliked the west turned in greater numbers to hating and wanting to destroy it?..

As for outrage and emotion my old man always said there were none worse than the bloody Arabs,Jews and colonials for a show of unfettered emotion  wailing and hitting themselves especially when the one who had departed this earthly coil had been helped on their way by people such as him in HMforces.

What he called a bloody shower who had no idea how to behave.

Oh I wouldn't worry to much about that Cromwell. We have whole swathes of our education system where free.speech is now virtually banned, populated by an absurdly privileged generation of students who've never been exposed to any danger in their lives, busily going about "reimagining" that historical British Empire narrative for you. It won't be long before gender neutral fighter pilots won the Battle of Britain and black lesbians stormed.the beaches at Normandy. We are already half way to making the men (and it's always going to be the White men now) of your father's generation into the actual enemy of "progressives*, regardless of which country they came from

Forget about the real things that matter. I hope you don't fall ill and need an ambulance or need the police in a hurry, because you could be waiting hours for either of them to turn up. Lose concentration for a moment however and commit a "thought crime".of the type you're accusing your father of, and they'll be there faster than you can say *racist*

So yeah. There was a time when, deep down, we knew and accepted that the world was an imperfect place, where we tried to manage the scale of our problems, not try to create a whole set of new ones by blaming our own friends and relatives for everything that was wrong with the world. And yes too, men of your fathers generation (and ours too) were imperfect. But I'd sooner stand next to them every time than any of todays shower of sh*t

[johnofgwent]

I don't believe most of what we would consider to be outside "western liberal democracies" have unfettered access to the internet/western media sources that we have, or would give much of a sh*t if they did.

In the end Cromwell, what is it we in the West want? Reading these threads, its like the side which ends up killing the least "civilians" or committing the least "war crimes" should be declared the "winner", like this is some kind of console game for 16 year olds. Its like playing "Top Trumps" in reverse. (although I doubt any except the old tossers on here like Borchester will remember those cards).

No. I don't think there is anything like this "outrage" about what is happening in a foreign country outside of the west. Except when its a Western nation fighting in a foreign country, because that's different of course . I pray we don't allow middle class couch politicians and wine bar strategists of public opinion to drag us into this conflict, because Western liberals are the last people who should ever be trusted where this kind of sacrifice is concerned. Because they are the ones who, when we lose these fights we could never win in the first place, turn their outrage on their own people who couldn't live up to their impossible standards in impossible situations and then throw them in jail.

Oh come on DD, surely you must agree sending a couple of thousand of those Instagram influencers with their blue and yellow hedgehogs to the front line to stick a flower in the turret of a T72 would be the finest thing for humanity...

Because once they fall in a hail of Russian machine gun bullets, or even better get homogenised by the main guns, the world will be an incredibly better place.

[cromwell]

I don't believe most of what we would consider to be outside "western liberal democracies" have unfettered access to the internet/western media sources that we have, or would give much of a sh*t if they did.

In the end Cromwell, what is it we in the West want? Reading these threads, its like the side which ends up killing the least "civilians" or committing the least "war crimes" should be declared the "winner", like this is some kind of console game for 16 year olds. Its like playing "Top Trumps" in reverse. (although I doubt any except the old tossers on here like Borchester will remember those cards).

No. I don't think there is anything like this "outrage" about what is happening in a foreign country outside of the west. Except when its a Western nation fighting in a foreign country, because that's different of course . I pray we don't allow middle class couch politicians and wine bar strategists of public opinion to drag us into this conflict, because Western liberals are the last people who should ever be trusted where this kind of sacrifice is concerned. Because they are the ones who, when we lose these fights we could never win in the first place, turn their outrage on their own people who couldn't live up to their impossible standards in impossible situations and then throw them in jail.

You mean the Iraqis et al weren't outraged at Bush and Bliar so a massive slice of people who disliked the west turned in greater numbers to hating and wanting to destroy it?..

As for outrage and emotion my old man always said there were none worse than the bloody Arabs,Jews and colonials for a show of unfettered emotion  wailing and hitting themselves especially when the one who had departed this earthly coil had been helped on their way by people such as him in HMforces.

What he called a bloody shower who had no idea how to behave.

[DeppityDawg]

Happens every day here there everywhere even if in only a small (though not minor instance) like I've said before the veneer of civilisation is quite thin.

Though you do have your thing about liberals,don't you think there is just as much outrage outside what are called the western liberal democracies?

I don't believe most of what we would consider to be outside "western liberal democracies" have unfettered access to the internet/western media sources that we have, or would give much of a sh*t if they did.

In the end Cromwell, what is it we in the West want? Reading these threads, its like the side which ends up killing the least "civilians" or committing the least "war crimes" should be declared the "winner", like this is some kind of console game for 16 year olds. Its like playing "Top Trumps" in reverse. (although I doubt any except the old tossers on here like Borchester will remember those cards).

No. I don't think there is anything like this "outrage" about what is happening in a foreign country outside of the west. Except when its a Western nation fighting in a foreign country, because that's different of course . I pray we don't allow middle class couch politicians and wine bar strategists of public opinion to drag us into this conflict, because Western liberals are the last people who should ever be trusted where this kind of sacrifice is concerned. Because they are the ones who, when we lose these fights we could never win in the first place, turn their outrage on their own people who couldn't live up to their impossible standards in impossible situations and then throw them in jail.

[johnofgwent]

I can't help but feel that if the majority loses confidence in what we understand about the world we live in then anarchy and chaos will ensue.

Well, yes, but I have zero confidence in being told the truth. In answer to the question how much do you trust ...  My answer to all is not one iota.

I know they're all bloody liars so I never worry about it. It never shocks me any more. So I genuinely don't have a care about it. It's quite liberating and when occasionally you find some professional actually has told the truth, you get quite light headed

[B0ycey]

Let's give this another go. Why has the truth of so many situations become a game of hide and seek? Since when did it become necessary to put falsehoods out in the public domain to the point that actually no-one, it seems to me, can be absolutely sure of what the truth of any given situation really is?

Surely if this is now the status quo none of us will be able to trust anyone or anything? I have given this some thought overnight and feel very strongly that it isn't the way to go. Some say that the truth is somewhere in the middle, while already suggesting that it's still all lies whether to the right left or in the middle. It seems to me that our own research simply puts us on a path of complex investigation into even more potential lies.

I cannot believe the theory that no-one actually tells the truth. In that lies insanity for all of us.

T00ts, you are not understanding the point being made. Many of the things you read are not objective. They are subjective opinions. You are also only reading the thoughts of the author. That isn't saying that you are being lied to. It is saying you are being exposed to a narrative that is biased.

[Borchester]

Easily fixed, tell the Westminster party and the civil service to stop making it up as they go along and creating lies on top of lies to cover for themselves.

Or by not calling uncomfortable truths lies