Abortion

[srb7677]

I have made it very clear that the UK law seems about right to me and that I personally wouldn't have one. If you are raped and cannot be arsed to go to the doctors in 13 weeks (or whatever it is), then I guess you are going to have to consider adoption. Plenty of potential mothers out there who can't have children will be more than happy to take responsibility.

Fair enough but we are arguing at cross purposes. I am criticising the notion of people not being allowed an abortion for any reason in parts of the USA. You are responding by saying they are allowed here. It is not here I am criticising.

[B0ycey]

So do you think it is right that a woman whose pregnancy results from a rape or from forced incest should not be allowed an abortion? Do you think that in cases of severe deformity, the woman should not be allowed an abortion? Do you think that even if pregnancy is likely to kill her she should not be allowed an abortion? Because this is what follows from any blanket ban with no exceptions for such cases. Abortion bans would be far more acceptable if such allowances were made in law.

I have made it very clear that the UK law seems about right to me and that I personally wouldn't have one. If you are raped and cannot be arsed to go to the doctors in 13 weeks (or whatever it is), then I guess you are going to have to consider adoption. Plenty of potential mothers out there who can't have children will be more than happy to take responsibility.

[srb7677]

Being I don't have a dog in this fight, I couldn't give a shit about the verdict. I personally wouldn't have an abortion but I am not going around asking for a changing of the law here. 13 weeks seems about right to me but in might even be as long as 20, I'm not sure. Having said that, if I was a justice on the SCOTUS I would have reached the same conclusion. There is nothing in the Bill of rights that supports abortions so I don't understand how is can be treated as constitutional. Which then means the decision is a state decision not Federal. If the majority in that state support abortions then they need to vote in legislators that support abortions to change the law in their states. That is what democracy is all about. It shouldn't be decide by Washington. That is what the constitution says and that is what should happen, regardless of my views. Laws are meant to be objective. They are not meant to be emotional.

That's all fair enough, but I am allowed to have an opinion on what happens in other countries, especially one as influential as the USA.

And whether or not Roe versus Wade was the correct call or not it has been a guaranteed right for 50 years that has just been taken away. 

And in expressing your opinion on it's validity are not you yourself expressing an opinion on what takes place in the USA same as me?

And it remains my opinion that any law that makes no allowance for rape, incest, deformity, or danger to the woman is a cruel, ideologically driven law. Even if only enacted by individual states, this remains so.

That's my opinion, and I am entitled to it, and you have neither agreed with my point nor tried to explain why you think it is wrong. So do you think it is right that a woman whose pregnancy results from a rape or from forced incest should not be allowed an abortion? Do you think that in cases of severe deformity, the woman should not be allowed an abortion? Do you think that even if pregnancy is likely to kill her she should not be allowed an abortion? Because this is what follows from any blanket ban with no exceptions for such cases. Abortion bans would be far more acceptable if such allowances were made in law.

[B0ycey]

Clearly a majority of Americans including 61% of women favour abortion rights, and as many as 80% favour abortion in all or most circumstances.

Only white evangelicals - the god botherers - are in favour of a ban by a majority. Is religious claptrap your motivation?

Being I don't have a dog in this fight, I couldn't give a shit about the verdict. I personally wouldn't have an abortion but I am not going around asking for a changing of the law here. 13 weeks seems about right to me but in might even be as long as 20, I'm not sure. Having said that, if I was a justice on the SCOTUS I would have reached the same conclusion. There is nothing in the Bill of rights that supports abortions so I don't understand how is can be treated as constitutional. Which then means the decision is a state decision not Federal. If the majority in that state support abortions then they need to vote in legislators that support abortions to change the law in their states. That is what democracy is all about. It shouldn't be decide by Washington. That is what the constitution says and that is what should happen, regardless of my views. Laws are meant to be objective. They are not meant to be emotional.

[T00ts]

I expect sleepy Joe will get an email from the Vatican shortly, telling him he is excommunicated. Abortion is prohibited in the Vatican City.
Malta prohibit abortions.
Andorra prohibit abortions.

There have been 60 million unborn children terminated since Roe v Wade.
I'm generally happy with this decision. I don't suppose anyone on this forum would have opted to be terminated before birth?

I don't think you are actually condoning no abortion no matter what. Rape, incest, danger to the mother or a foetus incapable of life after birth have to be exceptions even in the sight of God.

[srb7677]

But in any case, I take it you would have supported your mother ending your life?

Like I said I would not have been around to care. My life would not yet have existed so there would have been nothing to end bar a few growing cells.

That is like saying I would have been wrong for not defending my mother and father's right not to have sex.

And most of the people championing the removal of women's control over their own bodies seem to be men as far as I can see. You yourself being yet another example.

Here are some stats....


How Americans Really Feel About Abortion: The Sometimes Surprising Poll Results As Supreme Court Overturns Roe V. Wade (forbes.com)

Clearly a majority of Americans including 61% of women favour abortion rights, and as many as 80% favour abortion in all or most circumstances.

Only white evangelicals - the god botherers - are in favour of a ban by a majority. Is religious claptrap your motivation?

[B0ycey]

And why shouldn't a right to abortion be enshrined in law if Americans so choose? Are you yet another of those men telling women what to do with their bodies?

What the f**k are you talking about. It is women, not men who are mainly against abortions because of their maternal instinct. In America it is perhaps a politcal football but even so the women Republicans are just as loud as the men.

As for "enshrined in US Law", it is. Or it is in the sense it isn't. There is nothing in the bill of rights to say women have a constitutional right to have an abortion and as such it has been ruled that it is up to the state to decide on the abortion laws they have not Washington.

But in any case, I take it you would have supported your mother ending your life?

[srb7677]

The problem is, that in theory your mother could have aborted you despite the way you are today and your right of life could have been taken away even though you are healthy. Would you have supported your mother aborting you back then now? That fact she didn't doesn't detract Barry's point.

My opinion on abortions is that the UK have it right. I personally wouldn't have one but a safeguard of 13 weeks prevents rapes and defects being a factor as well. I do think states should at least consider rape when ruling on abortions if nothing else. But even so, the law is meant to be objective not moral and Conservatives are usually more pro life. So in that sense isn't it up to them what laws should or should not be legal in their state and not have Washington to decide for them?

If I were not yet a functioning human being I would not have been around to care. And not all defects appear within 13 weeks. A diapragm doesnt form until week 22 or 23, yet a baby cannot survive independently without it. It's absence often results in the intestines forming where the lungs should be.

And my basic point still stands. A law that does not allow for exceptions where the woman has been raped or her life is at risk, etc, is a cruel law not fit for purpose, and a victory of religious ideology over common sense and compassion.

And why shouldn't a right to abortion be enshrined in law if Americans so choose? Are you yet another of those men telling women what to do with their bodies?

[B0ycey]

And what about women impregnated by rapists, or incestuously by abusers in their own families? Or women for whom childbirth puts their lives at serious risk? Or women carrying babies so deformed that they will have no quality of life or might not even live long?

The problem is, that in theory your mother could have aborted you despite the way you are today and your right of life could have been taken away even though you are healthy. Would you have supported your mother aborting you back then now? That fact she didn't doesn't detract Barry's point.

My opinion on abortions is that the UK have it right. I personally wouldn't have one but a safeguard of 13 weeks prevents rapes and defects being a factor as well. I do think states should at least consider rape when ruling on abortions if nothing else. But even so, the law is meant to be objective not moral and Conservatives are usually more pro life. So in that sense isn't it up to them what laws should or should not be legal in their state and not have Washington to decide for them?

[B0ycey]

I expect sleepy Joe will get an email from the Vatican shortly, telling him he is excommunicated. Abortion is prohibited in the Vatican City.
Malta prohibit abortions.
Andorra prohibit abortions.

There have been 60 million unborn children terminated since Roe v Wade.
I'm generally happy with this decision. I don't suppose anyone on this forum would have opted to be terminated before birth?

I do think the SCOTUS came to the right conclusion in the sense I don't understand why it was ruled abortions was a constitutional right in Roe vs Wade. And in that sense it is up to the state to decide on legality seems the correct decision. But I need to ask, at what length do you give the right of life to? Does a sperm not have its right to life taken away under masterbation? Given a fetus needs to be incubated in a womens body, do she not have the right to do what she wants with her own body? These aren't gotcha questions. There is actually no right or wrong answer to them. But they are ironic ones. The right of one takes away from someone else whatever the ruling and it seems the life of one living cell isn't the same as another even to the extremists in any case.

[srb7677]

I don't suppose anyone on this forum would have opted to be terminated before birth?

If I was going to be born limbless or brain damaged, or born into a violently and/or sexually abusive family, not being born might have been a better option. I wouldn't have wanted to live like that.

And what about women impregnated by rapists, or incestuously by abusers in their own families? Or women for whom childbirth puts their lives at serious risk? Or women carrying babies so deformed that they will have no quality of life or might not even live long?

Any blanket ban that does not allow exemptions from the ban for such cases is draconian, cruel, potentially murderous, and not fit for purpose. A victory of ideology over common sense, which is never good.

[Barry]

I believe so. That's why Biden is now trying to find ways to stop such prosecutions for aiding and abetting and being an accessory to what is now defined as murder from coming about ...

I expect sleepy Joe will get an email from the Vatican shortly, telling him he is excommunicated. Abortion is prohibited in the Vatican City.
Malta prohibit abortions.
Andorra prohibit abortions.

There have been 60 million unborn children terminated since Roe v Wade. 
I'm generally happy with this decision. I don't suppose anyone on this forum would have opted to be terminated before birth?

[srb7677]

It came as a shock to see that some States don't allow abortion for any reason. I had expected welfare of the mother and foetus to count but no. I can't imagine how that would feel in all sorts of situations. Once again women are hit the hardest.

Seems to be heading in a Handmaiden's Tale direction.

And why does it always seem to be men telling women what they should do with their own bodies?

[T00ts]

It came as a shock to see that some States don't allow abortion for any reason. I had expected welfare of the mother and foetus to count but no. I can't imagine how that would feel in all sorts of situations. Once again women are hit the hardest. 

[B0ycey]

Some of the Bible Belt in the asylum are not unlike the taliban in their religious but often fake fervour.

I read that a demonstration against this ruling had a lorry plow in to it,this is the result of uncle Donald's placements.

Good old Don won fair and square first time around then cried foul when he lost in a similar manner and would've seen civil war, even his daughter thinks him wrong.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of this it only convinces the US is a looney bin.

The thing is, abortions are a contentious subject everywhere you go. Not just America. In many ways, I find it more bizarre that women were giving the constitutional right to have an abortion whatever the circumstances under the first ruling than I do now where it is taken away. I only write that in the sense that abortions are still LEGAL in America but states now have the option to make it illegal in their constituency. Perhaps an argument that abortions under rape should still be constitutional given the woman in question is a victim or when it threatens their life as whose life is suppose to be worth more, but under consensual sex with a viable fetus I do wonder why it is up to the state to reverse a decision you should be fully aware of the repercussions of because it is deemed a 'Constitutional Right' when no such right is written down in the Bill of Rights.