Before we start I’m no military expert

[Thomas]

According to the New York Times, the US aid to the Ukraine now totals $54 billions, which is a nice piece of cash, but only works out at about one dollar out of every five hundred the average Yank earns. So it is unlikely Joe Biden will be overly worried about enraged mobs storming down Pennsylvania Avenue.

Right but what that got to do with me saying the cost of living crises acrss the western world rather than sleepy joe levying a small tax on yanks to throw at ukraine could be the fly in the ointment for sanctions agaisnt russia?

I don't know where you get this idea that I enjoy war. My belief is that the best place for the military is getting shit faced drunk in their garrison towns and burning it off by running up and down whatever equivalent they have of the Brecon Beacons. Wars are easy to start and a bugger to finish.

As to the media, I don't believe much of anything it has to say other than the fact that the Russians have invaded the Ukraine and should turn around and go home

Good so we are largely reading off a similar page of a similar book. The yanks should get out and stop meddling in ukraine , and the russians and ukrainians get round the table and sort things out over a cold glass of vodka.

[Borchester]

you dont have the first clue as to what it is or isnt costing the yanks. All we do know about the yanks is that they are telling you what what in the northern irish part of the yookay regarding the irish protocal and brexit.

According to the New York Times, the US aid to the Ukraine now totals $54 billions, which is a nice piece of cash, but only works out at about one dollar out of every five hundred the average Yank earns. So it is unlikely Joe Biden will be overly worried about enraged mobs storming down Pennsylvania Avenue.

I don't know where you get this idea that I enjoy war. My belief is that the best place for the military is getting shit faced drunk in their garrison towns and burning it off by running up and down whatever equivalent they have of the Brecon Beacons. Wars are easy to start and a bugger to finish.

As to the media, I don't believe much of anything it has to say other than the fact that the Russians have invaded the Ukraine and should turn around and go home

[DeppityDawg]

The key to using Tanks on the modern battlefield comes down to Tactics and Combined Forces. Get it right and you have a vital body of very powerful mobile howitzers and bulldozers that can drive an assault. Get it wrong and you get scrap metal.

We don't always agree, but sometimes (when you aren't wearing your Ushanka ) you get it spot on. Tanks have always been vulnerable to well deployed AT weapons, and the successful employment of tanks has always rested on good infantry/armour co-operation. Its what European armies trained for for decades. Sure, drones have bought a new dimension to the fight, but warfare has always been about tactics and counter tactics, and they will develop in any conflict.

Designs, and more importantly, the way tanks are used, will change, but the day of the 'tank' isn't quite over yet. Any one of the armchair generals on here would shit their pants at even the sound of one up close. because they are terrifying things to see on a battlefield. But like anything, if crews aren't properly trained, if the equipment isn't properly maintained, if there isn't the logistic support, or the tactics being used are ineffective, then the chances of failure are always greatly increased

I would hazard a guess that in this conflict, like in most conflicts, losses of equipment to causes other than enemy action, like sudden changes of weather, breakdowns, friendly fire, running out of fuel, getting lost, and a 100 other mundane reasons most people don't think off, are at least as high as those to direct enemy action. Tanks are no exception

[Thomas]

BTW, yes I am significant, I pay for this forum out of my own pocket. Shall I refer to you as punctuation Tom?

see my reply in the poor nicki thread. You are indeed significant.

[Nick]

im looking for opinion and discussion and informed debate. So far , we hav a manc mod in a perpetual huff , limited posters , significant nick trying to make a point but forgetting the point in the first place , borkie wanting to bury his head in the sand , you avoiding home grown politics and talking pure unadulterated hyperbole about ukraine , etc etc.
sure cause you keep avoiding the starmer and labour threads as facts are chiels that winnae ding as burns said.

While we are offering opinions heres mine on the ukraine conflict. I think europe and the west is starting to creak and come apart regarding russian sanctions as the cost of living issues start to hit home in western countries.

Can your boss in washington keep it up long enough to "make russia pay" as you hint , or will the west crumble as the global east and south carries on buying russian oil and gas?

My money such as it is , is on the russians and the west crumbling .

We are all paying the price for american interference and aggression , along with the ukrainian people  , and poking the bear with a large stick.

We will see how things hold up as we go into autumn and winter and energy prices sky rocket further. until then enjoy your summer of wandering about ukraine threads to take your mind off limp wristed labour and keef the flag shagger.

Thomas. 
If you want to debate do it on an intellectual basis and don't try to drag all and sundry into it cause you're losing the point, obfuscation just makes you look daft. 

BTW, yes I am significant, I pay for this forum out of my own pocket. Shall I refer to you as punctuation Tom?

[Thomas]

"#Italy in May received about 400,000 barrels of Russian oil a day in May, four times the pre-invasion levels, according to the Kpler commodity data company

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-politics-economy-global-trade-b0c193007210592123112e2db1069461


i dont know who the prat is borkie you are on about , but it doesnt seem to be putin. More like us and our presidenti sleepy joe.

European Union: There is no alternative to Russian gas yet. EU Foreign Minister Josep Borrell said in an interview that Russian gas exports will not be subject to sanctions, as there is currently no alternative.

[Thomas]

Dunno.

I like to keep my head in the sand because that way I only get my arse shot off.

As to the actual conflict, I may have mentioned this before, but the main effect seems to be to strengthen NATO. Previously it was a rather sleepy outfit not overly keen on conflict, but now Putin has given it a bit of backbone.

And while the Ukraine is littered with the bodies of dead Russian squaddies, all this war has cost the Yanks is a few dollars they will never miss.

So one way and another, not Putin the Prat's finest hour

you dont have the first clue as to what it is or isnt costing the yanks. All we do know about the yanks is that they are telling you what what in the northern irish part of the yookay regarding the irish protocal and brexit.

As long as you know your place , thats all that matters to them.

Like your labour party friend good old , you both seem keen on fantasising about the deaths of fellow human beings from russia. Still ,as i said , threads like this serve a gallant purpose in keeping your focus away from the binfire at home.

The yanks might not miss  a few dollars here and there , but certainly the plebs across the western world are starting to groan under the weight of this self inflicted cost of living crises.

In most political polling , from jockland to saxon land , over to yank land and europe , cost of living is starting to take over as the number one issues facing people. Its already causing your mate johnson grief , and we will see how long you remain blase about a few dollars if this carries on to the winter months later this year.

Somehow i dont think the majority will be giving a flying fack about whose finest hour it is when reality kicks in regarding energy prices going through the roof.

[Borchester]

im looking for opinion and discussion and informed debate. So far , we hav a manc mod in a perpetual huff , limited posters , significant nick trying to make a point but forgetting the point in the first place , borkie wanting to bury his head in the sand , you avoiding home grown politics and talking pure unadulterated hyperbole about ukraine , etc etc.
sure cause you keep avoiding the starmer and labour threads as facts are chiels that winnae ding as burns said.

While we are offering opinions heres mine on the ukraine conflict. I think europe and the west is starting to creak and come apart regarding russian sanctions as the cost of living issues start to hit home in western countries.

Can your boss in washington keep it up long enough to "make russia pay" as you hint , or will the west crumble as the global east and south carries on buying russian oil and gas?

My money such as it is , is on the russians and the west crumbling .

We are all paying the price for american interference and aggression , along with the ukrainian people  , and poking the bear with a large stick.

We will see how things hold up as we go into autumn and winter and energy prices sky rocket further. until then enjoy your summer of wandering about ukraine threads to take your mind off limp wristed labour and keef the flag shagger.

Dunno.

I like to keep my head in the sand because that way I only get my arse shot off.

As to the actual conflict, I may have mentioned this before, but the main effect seems to be to strengthen NATO. Previously it was a rather sleepy outfit not overly keen on conflict, but now Putin has given it a bit of backbone.

And while the Ukraine is littered with the bodies of dead Russian squaddies, all this war has cost the Yanks is a few dollars they will never miss.

So one way and another, not Putin the Prat's finest hour

[Thomas]

This is a politics forum based on opinions. If you can not handle that you are in the wrong place.
.

im looking for opinion and discussion and informed debate. So far , we hav a manc mod in a perpetual huff , limited posters , significant nick trying to make a point but forgetting the point in the first place , borkie wanting to bury his head in the sand , you avoiding home grown politics and talking pure unadulterated hyperbole about ukraine , etc etc.

Any excuse to get Starmer in the picture I see. Another thread on the way out by the looks of it.

sure cause you keep avoiding the starmer and labour threads as facts are chiels that winnae ding as burns said.

While we are offering opinions heres mine on the ukraine conflict. I think europe and the west is starting to creak and come apart regarding russian sanctions as the cost of living issues start to hit home in western countries.

Can your boss in washington keep it up long enough to "make russia pay" as you hint , or will the west crumble as the global east and south carries on buying russian oil and gas?

My money such as it is , is on the russians and the west crumbling .

We are all paying the price for american interference and aggression , along with the ukrainian people  , and poking the bear with a large stick.

We will see how things hold up as we go into autumn and winter and energy prices sky rocket further. until then enjoy your summer of wandering about ukraine threads to take your mind off limp wristed labour and keef the flag shagger.

[Good old]

exactly my point. You speculate based on shite you read in the media , which may or may not be true. So when you say its "not looking good for the russians" clearly its your usual hyperbole based on zero evidence.prove it?

oh so we are back to "your guess"? Thats all your posts on ukraine are , wild guesses and stabs in the dark on what you want to happen rather than what actually is happening.waffle waflle waffle. Like i said good old , a convenient thread to take minds off your problems with keef back at home and that scum labour party of yours.

This is a politics forum based on opinions. If you can not handle that you are in the wrong place.
Oh no, that can't be right. Your full of unsubstantiated opinion, backed up with someone else's unsubstantiated opinion spread all over the site. Any excuse to get Starmer in the picture I see. Another thread on the way out by the looks of it.

[Thomas]

Hardly worth you bothering Thomas. I respect DDs opinions, and agree with much of them. But what you see fit  to criticise is not actually within the realms of ,"exactly", what is happening in Ukraine , No one knows exact numbers, , no one can know the day to day hell of combat, or the localised situations.

exactly my point. You speculate based on shite you read in the media , which may or may not be true. So when you say its "not looking good for the russians" clearly its your usual hyperbole based on zero evidence.

I don't actually do that,. After over a hundred days, Russia, has not yet taken the Donbas,an area already partly in their hands before they officially crossed the border. That is common knowledge. And it doesn't need a fully paid up military expert to know that can not bode well for longer term Russian ambitions.
The Russians owned up to close to 1500 casualties after just seven days, the wreckage of Russian equipment is well recorded in all areas cleared of their units. 1500in seven days, has to translate to a formidable number in one hundred days. And it's not difficult to know that the reason Russia, is fighting every inch is because they are having to replace men and equipment constantly.
As I say it's still in the air.

prove it?

My guess is the west will only give more support to Ukraine

oh so we are back to "your guess"? Thats all your posts on ukraine are , wild guesses and stabs in the dark on what you want to happen rather than what actually is happening.

No matter what the Russians say , they have not invaded Russia, they have invaded Ukraine.
I am not a pacifist, or even completely anti war. That doesn't mean I support all  war, or disprove of all war ,it means I support some use of force of arms , in particular for self defence. I fully support Ukraine in defending its self, it's unfortunate that Russia, doesn't start talking, preferably as they leave. That's the kind of peace that would be just.
As for armchairs , far to many Ukrainians have ,and will die in their armchairs from the effects of Russian artillery, they won't know exactly what's going on why either.

waffle waflle waffle. Like i said good old , a convenient thread to take minds off your problems with keef back at home and that scum labour party of yours.

[Good old]

Well good old , this is a nice comfy cosy thread to hide in to take your mind of the woes "at home" isnt it?

How do you know any of this? I think it was deppity dawg who said recently none of us know a thing of whats happeneing over there ,we merely get third hand press specualtion and propaganda.

You are quick to hold russia to account for the invasion  , while as ever remaininng silent on the wider issues , including alleged american involvement , that have led to this conflict over the last decade or so.

Cheerleading the loss of russian lives from the comfort of your armchair is pretty woefull , and what i think the majority of the world want is for all sides to stop fighting and get around a table and thrash out an agreement to end this conflict.

Hardly worth you bothering Thomas. I respect DDs opinions, and agree with much of them. But what you see fit  to criticise is not actually within the realms of ,"exactly", what is happening in Ukraine , No one knows exact numbers, , no one can know the day to day hell of combat, or the localised situations.
I don't actually do that,. After over a hundred days, Russia, has not yet taken the Donbas,an area already partly in their hands before they officially crossed the border. That is common knowledge. And it doesn't need a fully paid up military expert to know that can not bode well for longer term Russian ambitions.
The Russians owned up to close to 1500 casualties after just seven days, the wreckage of Russian equipment is well recorded in all areas cleared of their units. 1500in seven days, has to translate to a formidable number in one hundred days. And it's not difficult to know that the reason Russia, is fighting every inch is because they are having to replace men and equipment constantly.
As I say it's still in the air. My guess is the west will only give more support to Ukraine, and Russia will pay a bigger and bigger price for every yard as they get more and more stretched. The Russians, are paying a high price already there is little doubt. But they chose this, the Ukrainians did not . No matter what the Russians say , they have not invaded Russia, they have invaded Ukraine.
I am not a pacifist, or even completely anti war. That doesn't mean I support all  war, or disprove of all war ,it means I support some use of force of arms , in particular for self defence. I fully support Ukraine in defending its self, it's unfortunate that Russia, doesn't start talking, preferably as they leave. That's the kind of peace that would be just.
As for armchairs , far to many Ukrainians have ,and will die in their armchairs from the effects of Russian artillery, they won't know exactly what's going on or why either.

[Thomas]

Considering how limited the Ukrainians, are considered to be by supporters of their  invader.
The Russian giants performance , is what comes across  as limited in its actual effect.
It all remains in the air, but so far any territorial gains have cost the Russians an enormous rate of equipment and men. Not looking good if they want to go further.
The support for Ukraine is only likely to increase, and with it  Russian loses.
The Ukrainian people don't deserve this, victims of a Russian ego .

Well good old , this is a nice comfy cosy thread to hide in to take your mind of the woes "at home" isnt it?

How do you know any of this? I think it was deppity dawg who said recently none of us know a thing of whats happeneing over there ,we merely get third hand press specualtion and propaganda.

You are quick to hold russia to account for the invasion  , while as ever remaininng silent on the wider issues , including alleged american involvement , that have led to this conflict over the last decade or so.

Cheerleading the loss of russian lives from the comfort of your armchair is pretty woefull , and what i think the majority of the world want is for all sides to stop fighting and get around a table and thrash out an agreement to end this conflict.

[Nick]

Wunderwaffe version 4 - the previous three versions having failed spectacularly to make a difference
The yanks are sending them 4 units, of the Himars launchers which is less than half a battery and with only the standard missile packs not the strategic range ones.
Three months ago they had dozens of comparable systems such as Urgan, but all of these seem to be long since destroyed.

The rest of your post is as delusional as it is frankly, infantile.

Russian soldiers are refusing to go back to the front line, stating they have limited kit, food.
Amazing how the US has sent you the BOM for their shipments.

[Good old]

Considering how limited the Ukrainians, are considered to be by supporters of their  invader.
The Russian giants performance , is what comes across  as limited in its actual effect.
It all remains in the air, but so far any territorial gains have cost the Russians an enormous rate of equipment and men. Not looking good if they want to go further.
The support for Ukraine is only likely to increase, and with it  Russian loses. 
The Ukrainian people don't deserve this, victims of a Russian ego .