Union flag banned

[Thomas]

 Then in June he'll agree to BRINO but will spin it as a fantastic deal for the UK, a 3-0 win and how the german car industry is on it's knees.

You might be right , and also i bet its yours and conors great hope. However , he knows there will be a price to pay at the next election , Farage and the brexit party are waiting in the wings and i dont think the english public will forgive or forget a  tory betrayal over brexit.



I dont think the english have went through all this to accept a BRINO however the tories and johnson spin it.



All a BRINO will do is hand farage power , and you will end up with an extreme government in westminster commited to a hard brexit will zero tolerance for pissing about , not to mention it will rip the conservatives to shreds in the process.

[Thomas]

Wrong again. It's throwing NI under a bus.

No it isnt.



Its respecting the brexit vote , and the northern irish vote , and trying to respect the GFA and all sections of the community. As i said , if that throwing the northern irish under a bus , can we have some of that too please in scotland.

What about Nationalists in NI that rely on GB as part of a supply chain. There will now be barriers to that trade (customs checks, tariffs to be paid, forms to be completed, tariffs to be claimed).

People in other european countries are in the same situation. Are they bleating away like you? The majority of the world respect democracy , are rolling up their sleeves and preparing for the uk leaving while you and conor sit bleating you cant accept democracy .



Tough.

There will also be the issue of their supply chain having to sign up to the EU rules and regulations on manufacturing so these manufacturers in NI will most likely see cost increases. What you say is demonstrably untrue.

Too bad. Brexit is going to involve massive change and cost for many business across the eu , not just northern ireland who are actually getting the best of both worlds.



Is everyone else crying? Most business just want to know whats happening  , so they can get on and plan for the new post brexit environment and take advantage of it.



People decide democracy , not business. Business have to live with what the people want , and adapt to it.

 What you say is demonstrably untrue.

prove it then?



So far  , you have been shown to be talking shite as ever , one minute on our old forum you were making pro IRA comments which upset many of the english , then the next you are some guardian angel of the hardcore unionist community. You are all over the place in desperation trying to muddy the waters and stop brexit.



Stop flogging a dead horse gerry. You arent any good at it.

[Thomas]

Your taking what I said out of context. My post to Cromwell was about how the EU stands together as one, and the UK is throwing NI under the bus.

No im not. You can put your comment into any context you want , its still incorrect.



The uk isnt throwing northern ireland under a bus as northern ireland is getting what it wants.56% of the people in northern ireland voted to remain in the eu , and for all intents and purposes , thats what it happening.



Both the EU , and the UK , are standing by northern ireland and bending over backwards to facilitate a great compromise which trys to give every part of the northern irish community what they want. Nationalists still get to call themselves irish and hold irish passports , unionists still get to call themselves british and remain part of the uk , and those inbetween and the wider 56% who voted remain are getting to remain.



If thats throwing northern ireland under a bus , then i wish the uk and eu would throw us in scotland under a bus too.

Approx 50% of the people of NI identify as British, they now find themselves as a different class of British citizen.

Stop trying to wriggle . You said northern ireland was being thrown under a bus , if you had merely meant the unionist population , then you should have said the unionists but you didnt.



You and conor talk incessantly about compromise and listening to people , but when a compromise is reached to keep people in northern ireland british , you start bleating they are a different kind of british.



For the uk government to be throwing unionists under a bus , they would then have to strip them of british citizenship and dump northern ireland when that emphatically isnt the case.( or drag them completely out of the eu against the majority vote , which they arent doing either)



Many of the 48% of the protestant community you refer to arent hardcore dup unionists , they want to retain european citizenship too  , voted to remain in the eu , and are getting exactly what they want hence why the majority of people in northern ireland and northern ireland itself arent being thrown under a bus.

So my post is correct NI is being thrown under the bus.

I completely disagree.



If unionists want to remain part of the uk , then they have to accept what the majority votes for. Thats the deal. The uk voted to leave the eu , and thats democracy for you.



This is why i have been all my life anti unionist , and believe  scotland should do its own thing. For those in northern ireland or scotland who are unionist , then as part of that , they accept the majority of the population live in england  , and in a democracy the majority view goes.



Hardcore unionist in northern ireland , who are a tiny minority of the population there  seem to want their cake and to eat it all the time . They want to be british one minute , and as you and doggy have commented before on the old forum want to be excepted from uk laws the next like abortion , gay marriage etc etc.



The uk government is doing the very thing you and conor have argued for the past year or more on our old forum , listening to every view from every side in northern ireland and putting forth a compromise that respects everyone as best it can. Thus they are not throwing northern ireland under a bus.

I never said financially, I was talking about standing together, your misrepresenting what I said.

What are you talking about now gerry? Using the quote tags quote me where i did  say you said financially? If you cant , then shut up and stop making things up.

The quote is below.

aye i have read the quote gerry , and thats what im picking you up on and telling you you are talking shite. Northern ireland is getting a great deal , and isnt being thrown under a bus.



Northern ireland is getting what it voted for. England / wales are getting what they voted for. We in scotland arent. Stop talking rubbish gerry.

Because that's what Johnson has done to citizens of the UK. The context of my post was how England doesn't care about the other members of the UK.

England doesnt care about the rest of the uk....why should it?



However in the current circumstances regarding northern ireland , despite all this they are giving you a great deal and not throwing you under a bus.



So stop talking rubbish.

That's pretty clear.

Doesnt matter how you try and wriggle and what you wrote later in the thread , if you had meant you were only thinking about the poor wee helpless hardcore unionists you have been slagging off on our old forum for over a year , then you should have said unionists are getting thrown under a bus , but you didnt did you?



Hence why i picked you up on it. Its rubbish you and i both know its rubbish , so stop digging .

[GerryT]

I wouldn't entirely rule out Boris pulling the plug.  :|

I think he plans to exit, have a big party. Be seen as the an that made brexit happen. Then he'll turn the media onto anything but the future relationship. The EU won't get a mention. Then in June he'll agree to BRINO but will spin it as a fantastic deal for the UK, a 3-0 win and how the german car industry is on it's knees. The rhetoric will be delivered with surgical precision and swiftly moving on so he can serve the balance of his term.

Won't be long before we know.

[Scott777]

I can't see it not happening, just 2 weeks to go. It can only stop if Johnson pulls the plug, no other way.

I wouldn't entirely rule out Boris pulling the plug.  :|

[GerryT]

I'll believe it when it happens.

I can't see it not happening, just 2 weeks to go. It can only stop if Johnson pulls the plug, no other way.

[GerryT]

Gerry didnt say this earlier , and this wasnt the point i picked him up over.



He said northern ireland was getting chucked under a bus which is demonstrably untrue.



The WA chucks many minorities under a bus , ....

Wrong again. It's throwing NI under a bus.

What about Nationalists in NI that rely on GB as part of a supply chain. There will now be barriers to that trade (customs checks, tariffs to be paid, forms to be completed, tariffs to be claimed). There will also be the issue of their supply chain having to sign up to the EU rules and regulations on manufacturing so these manufacturers in NI will most likely see cost increases. What you say is demonstrably untrue.

[GerryT]

Sigh#



Im making perfect sense , and anyone with the ability to read english and follow posts can see that.



Gerry made a comment about northern ireland being flung under a bus , and in light of all you and he have said , i picked him up over it. You are deflecting  ,you are reinterpreting what gerry said to suit your pathetic deflection.



Gerry didnt say unionists were being flung under a bus , you made that up later on in the debate  , no one else. He said northern ireland was.



Stop deflecting and making things up conor.

Your taking what I said out of context. My post to Cromwell was about how the EU stands together as one, and the UK is throwing NI under the bus. Approx 50% of the people of NI identify as British, they now find themselves as a different class of British citizen. So my post is correct NI is being thrown under the bus. I never said financially, I was talking about standing together, your misrepresenting what I said. The quote is below. From page 2

The EU is standing together, as one "we are the eu and the eu is us". That's not what the UK is doing, throwing NI under the bus. Maybe you could have a UK slogan "we(england that is) is the UK, and no one else counts).

But further in the

 I wonder what Cromwell/Streetwalker/Barry or JohnofG would think if they had to use a passport to travel to London, or pay tariffs to ship goods to Manchester and have to comply fully with all goods manufactured with EU rules and regulations the ECJ having oversight on local business. Because that's what Johnson has done to citizens of the UK. The context of my post was how England doesn't care about the other members of the UK.



Later in the tread I do say page 2

If you are from NI and a unionist then you wouldn't be so happy with a deal that puts a border in the Irish sea, customs checks on all goods moving in and out of NI and keep NI in regulatory alignment with the EU. For England to get it's brexit it is effectively abandoning NI, that's a fact.

Then on page 3
 

It hasn't been widely reported but when the full impact of Brexit is know by the NI hardcore unionists, they won't be much pleased.

That's pretty clear.

[Streetwalker]

The UK had many exceptions, one being no further UK integration in the EU. So your wrong there. The EU a federalist state, well your wrong there as well. Any more wrong statements you'd like to get out there ?

The UK's integration into the EU has been ongoing since Ted Heath signed on the dotted line in 1972 . Cameron got 'assurances' that the UK would be exempt from further integration but unfortunately the treaties signed by various governments had already done the damage . The EU works on the rule of law ,the treaties signed override any assurances that Junker may have given over a glass of port .



The EU is not a federal state , yet . The federalisation of Europe is though in the view of many the end goal (inc within the eu itself) . Further integration of Europes borderless states is inevitable and is why we have elected to leave .The UK can make its own future as can those who wish to stay aboard the federal train . Good luck .

[Scott777]

 Again I repeat the UK is leaving, wax in the ears I guess.

I'll believe it when it happens.

[Thomas]

And just to add to the above, the Withdrawal Agreement doesn't only chuck the DUP under the bus,

Gerry didnt say this earlier , and this wasnt the point i picked him up over.



He said northern ireland was getting chucked under a bus which is demonstrably untrue.



The WA chucks many minorities under a bus , of which the DUP are only one , scotland is another , and remainers in england and wales too. Whats your point?



It certainly doesnt make sense in the light of my debate with you and gerry .

there are also elements that may well be chucking fundamental principles of Brexit under the bus too.

There is  , and i have already raised this point to brexiters here in the yookay. However whats it to do with you? Why do you , a foreigner over in the republic of ireland , care?



If johnson chucks brexit "under a bus" , or elements of it , he will answer to the english majority over this , no one else , and certainly not you.

If Northern Ireland remains in the EU regulatory sphere on certain areas, then it is utterly inevitable that it will have to comply with relevant EU law and regulation permanently.

Possibly , probably , why do you care though? Surely this is a great news for ireland?



As for here , no one really cares. You have been told this time and again , no one gives a feck about northern ireland , its not on a list of the average joes priorities , and if the uk government caters to northern ireland above england , which it wont , then the english will annihilate johnson.

 This means companies in Great Britain with NI subsidiaries or operations / supply chains in NI will find themselves having to comply with EU law and therefore EU law being applicable in domestic British courts.

Great int it?



Im smiling , and the english are shrugging their shoulders in utter disinterest.

So it's not just NI Unionists who need to be wary of the future because of the WA.

We are all wary. Brexit is still happening , the english will hold johnson and his party to account , and we in scotland are doing our bit too.



What you worried about though? Concern for poor engerlund and the wider yookay yet again overriding home interests in the republic? Its a great deal for ireland you told me and you are entirely vindicated , so why are you bothered???

 :brd:  :roll:

[Thomas]

No, that's a proven fact, not disrespectful.

Aye it is. Doesnt matter what someone is  , its hypocritical to talk about respect and then disrespect someone in this way.



If i talk about respect , then for example  call a gay person a "poof" , technically i might be correct , but its still disrespectfull.

It pains me to keep saying the conversation has moved on, the UK is leaving, but you put words in peoples mouths saying we want to stop it. Again I repeat the UK is leaving, wax in the ears I guess.

No wax in my ears gerry.How about you? Whats your agenda then?



We all know where everyone on this forum is coming from , and their politics except you and doggy.



We are all uk citizens for better or worse living in the disunited kingdom , you and doggy arent.



You insinuate you accept the debate has moved on and england/uk is leaving the eu , northern ireland is getting what it wants , so why are you here then?



You spend most of your time rubbishing brexit , which is nothing to do with you , and is the affair of a sovereign  foreign multi national state , of which you have no control not even a simple vote , so whats it to do with you?

The Sea border was as May put it "no UK prime minister could agree to it", I am happy as that border is good news for Ireland.

so tell conor this not me.You agree its great for northern ireland and ireland in general , so by the clear direction of that logic northern ireland cannot be getting thrown under a bus as you earlier said. Have a word wae yer pal doggy , he seems a bit confused and hard of understanding on this point.

You fail to see or ignore the point, Johnson will say anything, lie after lie, then do the opposite and the UK people love him.

The "uk " people dont love him. He didnt win any seats in northern ireland , lost more than half his seats in scotland and was routed here , and won more than 90% of his seats in one country , england . So the english love him , not the people of the uk.



Wether he lies or not , i dont care , i dont support or believe him , and he has to answer to the english not me or you. Whats it to do with you over in the foreign republic of ireland though what he is?

If brexit was about the UK and getting back control it's sad to see the UK no longer being the UK as it half amputates NI from the union.

So why are you worried?



You  apparently an irishman in the foreign republic , whose country has laid claim to its historic northern territories the british undemocratically carved out due to mere spite a century ago , now complaining brexit might deliver that which you country and the majority in it have wanted for the last century?



Whats it to you? Whats your agenda?

[Thomas]

You're telling me that it's "deflection" to inform you that applying someone else's perspective is not the same as agreeing.  Right so from Hitler's perspective, Jews were scum.  Would you consider it deflection if I explained that I'm not an antisemite but that this was simply Hitler's perspective towards Jews ?



I mean...come on Thomas. You are not making sense here.

Sigh#



Im making perfect sense , and anyone with the ability to read english and follow posts can see that.



Gerry made a comment about northern ireland being flung under a bus , and in light of all you and he have said , i picked him up over it. You are deflecting  ,you are reinterpreting what gerry said to suit your pathetic deflection.



Gerry didnt say unionists were being flung under a bus , you made that up later on in the debate  , no one else. He said northern ireland was.



Stop deflecting and making things up conor.

Anyway...on to your point where you are saying that I have claimed Unionists and Leavers in NI should not be listened to. This is incorrect generally, and also specifically to the point we are discussing here. It's incorrect generally because I have had other discussions with you before regarding a United Ireland where I have spoken about accommodating Unionists to some extent. Specifically, you're also incorrect to the point we are discussing here — from my earliest days on the old forum, I argued that Brexit would damage the Union. I've always said that it damaged Unionism — not just in NI but in the wider UK

.



Rubbish.



1.The general outline of your argument last year on our old forum when it looked like the DUP were cosying up to the conservatives , was that the DUP didnt speak for northern ireland , they were brexiters in the minority whereas northern ireland was 56% cross community remain , the GFA must be respected which the DUP have always hated , and that arlene and her party simply wanted to put up walls between the 6 counties and the rest of ireland by using brexit to do this.



2. We arent talking about soothing unionist fears and settling them into a united ireland. We are talking about brexit . You and gerrys clear argument over the last year has been that we musnt listen to arlene foster and her party , and that the majority will of the northern irish people and the GFA must be respected.



3.Brexit will damage the union.Everyone accepts that. Thats the whole argument being made by me and many others , that the english majority (and welsh) voted leave , and the rest of us are being told to shut up and accept it. This however is nothing to do with my point that northern ireland isnt being thrown under a bus , because by yours and gerrys own admission , northern ireland is having its remain vote and the GFA respected.##



So what are you talking about?



If you are arguing we all must consider the feelings of every single minority across the world on every issue , then if we dont that means all countries every day over some issue or other are being thrown under a bus because a minority somewhere are having their feelings hurt. Thats not how democracy works in the real world .



...and again it has no bearing whatsoever in me picking you and gerry up over your hypocrisy.

I have always taken into consideration those Unionists who voted Leave in NI, but have always pointed out that their stance was illogical. You can't make sense out of something that fundamentally doesn't make sense. And even at that, I have never argued that the illogical stance on NI should prevent Brexit....I have argued simply that if the minority in NI who voted Brexit still really wanted it, it would mean massive compromises on the integrity of the UK.

No you havent. Im not going to keep going over the same ridiculous point you are making where you tell us arlene musnt get her way and dont listen to her one minute , to the next you claim you always listen to unionists in northern ireland.



Further , i point out again northern ireland and all communities within are getting a massive compromise over brexit , hence why they arent being thrown under a bus so what the feck are you talking about?

But there is only so long you can make that point to them. Once you have made it over and over, and they still despite all evidence and logic cannot see that Brexit damages the very thing they claim to want to protect, then all you can really say is "well we did warn you, and now here are the consequences".

The majority in northern ireland voted to remain , so what are you talking about? You were listened to in the 6 counties?  The majority in england and wales voted leave , and i have made the point time and again despite your desperate concern for this "union" from over in a foreign country , large parts of the uk dont really give a feck about it.

Only now — when the dust of the Withdrawal Agreeement is settling — is it finally dawning on the DUP and the Unionist Leavers of NI that their support for Brexit was counterintuitive.

It doesnt matter , they are getting the best of both worlds by yours and gerrys own admission so countertuitive or not , they arent being thrown under a bus as you claim. Thats my point.

From their perspective, NI has now been chucked under the bus .....and I'm really struggling to understand how you aren't grasping this basic elementary point.

...and im really really struggling to understand why you arent grasping the fact that wasnt the point gerry was making  , that wasnt the point i picked him up over , and no one has said this bar you were you inserted this weak perspective into the conversation at a later stage as you wriggled on that hook i have you impaled on.

And finally, why in God's name are you asking me again why we should consider the views of the Leave minority in NI as regards the Withdrawal Agreement? I'm not saying that at all.

aye you are.You are saying we have to see it from their perspective in this quote...

From their perspective, NI has now been chucked under the bus .....and I'm really struggling to understand how you aren't grasping this basic elementary point.

You are taking the piss conor.Stop talking shite.

Like I said above, they have already been considered.

so what are you gibbering about then? They have been considered , they are in a minority , majority view wins , and northern ireland isnt being thrown under a bus , the simple point i was making.



England by your logic is obviously being thrown under a bus too as no one is considering the "perspective" of english remainers , despite the fact they have been routed in 4 Elections and a referendum over 5 years. ::

They didn't listen, they did not think logically,

They did listen , and from their "perspective" , they did think logically , so why arent you considering how they feel? They disagreed with you , you lost , thats democracy.Losers dont get to call the shots.

What are you saying that I'm implying ?

see above.

To be honest, I'm just completely losing track of the phantom arguments you're putting in my mouth. It's great that you're putting arguments to the sword and all that, but also just unfortunate that they aren't arguments I'm making !

maybe you are losing track as i said because a liar has to work extremely hard at the web of deceit he spins . I dont lie conor , i tell the truth.

[GerryT]

This is the best deal the island of Ireland could wish for.  NI and SI get unfettered access to GB and the EU, what's your problem?

Oh no, the Protestants and Catholic's might have to agree on something and be civil to each other. Well whoop'ty fookin do.  



 :shrg:

No, there's going to be a border in he Irish sea. The Island of Ireland won't have unfettered access to GB and vice versa. From a ROI point of view that's understandable but disappointing, but for NI, a part of the UK to be just cut off, that's a different story.

[GerryT]

I suggest you watch the Hunger Games.



It's a socialist idea and we all know socialism doesn't work because the big fish grow tired of feeding the little fish.



As you are a little fish, of course you think it is a great idea. You might think you're in with the bigger fish now that you are at neutrality, but you're still shitting your self that the big fish next to you feed off is swimming off into the sunset.



I'm sure Gerry has great ideas as to who to sell all your beef to.

Yea simple really, we'll walk them over the non existent border in NI, they'll process it and sell it into GB as NI product. Problem solved.



Failing that we'll just sell it into the UK as your leader will probably put zero tariffs on everything to stop the great UK famine.



What's the UK going to do about its 40% exports to the EU, whats your solution there ?