The ECHR - should we LEAVE?

[HallowedBrexit]

Leaving the ECHR was one of the main reasons I voted to leave in 2016.

[Barry]

So, just to be clear for my own sanity

Which of the two courts are being brought to bear on Rwanda then ?

Is it The European Court of Justice to whom we had the right to say take a hike as soon as we left the EU and whose remaining influence in Britain exists only because remoaner politicians in London, Cardiff, Edinburgh or Belfast have blocked the striking down of their European bullshit in our statutes....

OR is is the European Court of Human Rights whose convention Britain signed up to long before the EEC existed and to escape the clutches of which we need to depart the Council of Europe and become a rogue state (which I am fine with)

I genuinely don't know which any more. I had assumed the latter as BoJo surely isn't so f**king stupid as to kow tow to a f**king EU court having influence solely over EU countries ... Is he ??

The ECHR, JoG. It was T00ts who posted a copy/paste about a Google search which showed that there was confusion.
It was a common confusion for some leading up to the Brexit vote, too. I'm sure a lot of people out there will be surprised we are still subject to and a member of the ECHR after leaving the EU.

[HDQQ]

The Council of Europe has 46 member states including traditionally neutral Switzerland. Russia was expelled earlier this year.

We should definitely stay in it.

I don't suppose most Brexiters even realised that the Council of Europe is separate from the EU and that we're still in it. The European flag was introduced by the Council of Europe so we can still legitimately display it on our car number plates, as indeed I do. It is not an official EU flag but they are permitted to use it by virtue of being a European institution.

[johnofgwent]

I have two pet theories currently.

Bad optics. Boris doesn't want to look bad.

Good optics. Boris wants this to be an election issue.

Optics ??

What have measures of whisky rum gin and vodka got to do with this ??

[johnofgwent]

It seems that there is some confusion here between the ECHR and the (EU) European Court of Justice.

They are different. One belongs to the EU. The other does not.

So, just to be clear for my own sanity

Which of the two courts are being brought to bear on Rwanda then ?

Is it The European Court of Justice to whom we had the right to say take a hike as soon as we left the EU and whose remaining influence in Britain exists only because remoaner politicians in London, Cardiff, Edinburgh or Belfast have blocked the striking down of their European bullshit in our statutes....

OR is is the European Court of Human Rights whose convention Britain signed up to long before the EEC existed and to escape the clutches of which we need to depart the Council of Europe and become a rogue state (which I am fine with)

I genuinely don't know which any more. I had assumed the latter as BoJo surely isn't so f**king stupid as to kow tow to a f**king EU court having influence solely over EU countries ... Is he ??

[Baff]

I have just read that in fact we can ignore their rulings and revert to our own Sovereignty. That begs the question as to why the plane didn't take off with a full load anyway.

I have two pet theories currently.

Bad optics. Boris doesn't want to look bad.

Good optics. Boris wants this to be an election issue.

[cromwell]

I hope this can be resolved,we should accommodate genuine asylum seekers but are not obliged to take econnomic migrants,the ECHR is an important body IMO.

You have to look took to the future,I'm afraid that with the state of the world and its overpopulation what do we do then,they wont be coming in hundreds or thousands.....perhaps millions on the move?

[patman post]

Much plain incorrect assumption and thinking can be explained by confusion, lack of understanding, and unadulterated bias — especially when it comes to nationalism and politics...

[T00ts]

It seems that there is some confusion here between the ECHR and the (EU) European Court of Justice.

They are different. One belongs to the EU. The other does not.

Ah yes that explains my confusion. 

[Barry]

Google - Are ECHR rulings binding on the UK?


First, the UK courts, including the Supreme Court, are not bound by decisions of the Court of Justice of the European Union made after 11pm on 31 December 2020. The UK courts, including the Supreme Court, may have regard to the Luxembourg Court's decisions if relevant, but they are not generally obliged to follow them.


Having copied that it seems there are as many refs to Art 46 which we apparently signed up to that makes compulsory to abide by the rulings. So I guess the Gov will choose what it believes. Something about where national law conflicts then ECHR is ruled until conflict removed. I'm now none the wiser!

It seems that there is some confusion here between the ECHR and the (EU) European Court of Justice.

They are different. One belongs to the EU. The other does not.

[T00ts]

Where did you read that.

I ask because I've gone into some detail about this business before. Despite the best efforts of the EUs hardcore to make you believe it is an EU Institution, it is not.

The EU is ruled by a bunch of politicians who call one of their covens the European Council. The name is chosen deliberately because it's French translation sounds massively like the body that actually founded the ECHR, the Council of Europe.

If you have watched Orson Wells's The Thind Man you will have seen "four men in a jeep" (or was it three, I forget) wandering around immediate post war Vienna or whatever.

The thing being the political body paying their salary by funding their military units was the organisation that would rise to be the European Council, a group of Western Nations gather d together in post war years for the obvious reasons. Britain was a founder signatory and this was about eight years before EurAtom and the Iron and steel Trade Confederation would come up with the Treaty of Rome.

The European Court of Human Rights was created by the Council of Europe and it's decisions are binding on all members.

We could leave the council and do our own thing. If we did we would be denounced as a pariah state. I have no problem with that by the way but others might.

Google - Are ECHR rulings binding on the UK?


First, the UK courts, including the Supreme Court, are not bound by decisions of the Court of Justice of the European Union made after 11pm on 31 December 2020. The UK courts, including the Supreme Court, may have regard to the Luxembourg Court's decisions if relevant, but they are not generally obliged to follow them.


Having copied that it seems there are as many refs to Art 46 which we apparently signed up to that makes compulsory to abide by the rulings. So I guess the Gov will choose what it believes. Something about where national law conflicts then ECHR is ruled until conflict removed. I'm now none the wiser!

[johnofgwent]

I have just read that in fact we can ignore their rulings and revert to our own Sovereignty. That begs the question as to why the plane didn't take off with a full load anyway.

Where did you read that.

I ask because I've gone into some detail about this business before. Despite the best efforts of the EUs hardcore to make you believe it is an EU Institution, it is not.

The EU is ruled by a bunch of politicians who call one of their covens the European Council. The name is chosen deliberately because it's French translation sounds massively like the body that actually founded the ECHR, the Council of Europe.

If you have watched Orson Wells's The Thind Man you will have seen "four men in a jeep" (or was it three, I forget) wandering around immediate post war Vienna or whatever.

The thing being the political body paying their salary by funding their military units was the organisation that would rise to be the European Council, a group of Western Nations gather d together in post war years for the obvious reasons. Britain was a founder signatory and this was about eight years before EurAtom and the Iron and steel Trade Confederation would come up with the Treaty of Rome.

The European Court of Human Rights was created by the Council of Europe and it's decisions are binding on all members.

We could leave the council and do our own thing. If we did we would be denounced as a pariah state. I have no problem with that by the way but others might.

[Borchester]

From the sentiments encapsulated in the above, it's difficult to realise that probably the prime mover behind the ECHR was Winston Churchill. He was once voted the Greatest Briton and is possibly still revered by those who now want to jettison Britain's association with, arguably, Churchill's greatest legacy...

https://eachother.org.uk/wrote-european-convention-human-rights/

PS — though egging his statue is still a no-no!!!

When Churchill died in 1965, all the cranes in dockland were lowered in salute.

I was going through my Trotskyite phase at the time and I asked why the dockers were saluting their class enemy, whereupon I was politely advised that I was still shitting yellow, did not know hay from a bull's arse and that if I did I would realise that no one in dockland would vote for Churchill, but that most everyone would shake his hand.

[patman post]

The ECHR has foiled Priti Patel's genius Rwanda scheme:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10918485/Tories-vent-fury-abominable-European-court-ruling-Rwanda-flight.html#reader-comments

Given the success we made of Brexit, is it now time to leave the ECHR?

I think it's inevitable but there will be those desperate to stop it.

From the sentiments encapsulated in the above, it's difficult to realise that probably the prime mover behind the ECHR was Winston Churchill. He was once voted the Greatest Briton and is possibly still revered by those who now want to jettison Britain's association with, arguably, Churchill's greatest legacy...

https://eachother.org.uk/wrote-european-convention-human-rights/

PS — though egging his statue is still a no-no!!!

[Borchester]

Yes as well as the Charities who seem to forget that these are people who are paying vast sums to get here from already safe destinations.

The role of most charities is to stay in business, which is why I am never ashamed of haggling in Oxfam and give any spare cash to the beggar outside.