Privatisation

[Thomas]

That is of course utter rubbish that the right like to propogate. The Nazis called themselves socialists purely to lure the gullible. They were actually social darwinians with contempt for the weak and vulnerable whom they ultimately murdered to save money. They destroyed the trade unions and empowered employers, actively sought to destroy socialism, marxism and communism, locking up many adherents of these in concentration camps. The ones they didn't murder outright. And they were bankrolled into power by big business and levered into government by the wealthy conservative elites. They believed in race war not class war, were ultra-nationalists not internationalists, allowed big busness to exploit slave labour in the literal sense, and even launched a racist crusade in the east, one of whose explicit aims was to destroy marxism.

If you think that is in any way socialist, you ought to be in the Monster Raving Loony party. Because you clearly have no idea what socialism is and - more to the point - what it isn't.

some great posts on this thread by boycey and steve. Have to say this is one of the best and most informed put downs i have read on this forum for a while.

Cheers steve , and well put. The last book i read on world war two and its prelude was appeasing hitler by tim bouverie , and he makes similar points about the nazis. He also points out the british elite ( and those in other countries ) looked more favourably and sympathised with fascism across europe than they did communism at the time for obvious reasons.

[B0ycey]

The Scandinavian system would mean a complete shift in economy. Increasing salaries by 30%, highest tax bracket of 70%. And the last time I was in the region there were no single mothers with 12 children advertising for sperm donor #13 claiming 40K a year.
Tell me B0ycey, what are the WORKING elements of socialism? BTW, I do believe the Nazi party was a socialist party. 😉

The system works for Scandinavia Nick. And of course it is like everything in life, you get what you pay for. And those who earn more pay their correct share in tax and those who earn less pay less as it should be. None of this tax haven bollocks. And unlike like here, which is 40% top tier its like 80%. And the unions make sure your wages are high. So again it isn't like here where Maclean says the answer to the cost of living crisis is to have three jobs.

[srb7677]

BTW, I do believe the Nazi party was a socialist party.

That is of course utter rubbish that the right like to propogate. The Nazis called themselves socialists purely to lure the gullible. They were actually social darwinians with contempt for the weak and vulnerable whom they ultimately murdered to save money. They destroyed the trade unions and empowered employers, actively sought to destroy socialism, marxism and communism, locking up many adherents of these in concentration camps. The ones they didn't murder outright. And they were bankrolled into power by big business and levered into government by the wealthy conservative elites. They believed in race war not class war, were ultra-nationalists not internationalists, allowed big busness to exploit slave labour in the literal sense, and even launched a racist crusade in the east, one of whose explicit aims was to destroy marxism.

If you think that is in any way socialist, you ought to be in the Monster Raving Loony party. Because you clearly have no idea what socialism is and - more to the point - what it isn't.

[B0ycey]

we used to have some great dicsussions with people like marxist nutter on this forums predecessor on the different  political and economic theories of social organisation. I fully agree with you on scandinavian models of government.

Perhaps you should start a thread on say norwegian government and way of life compared to the uk , and the differences between them.

I don't really know what I can say in a thread OP that Wikipedia hasn't covered in great deal Thomas. I prefer to just bring it up as an argument when it needs to be brought up. But what I will say is the stats don't lie, Scandinavia are by and large regarded as the best places to live. They have great services, subsidised travel, nationalised services, unions, high wages, fine by income and a fair but high tax system. Oh and they have a lower retirement age. And a generous welfare system and safety net alike. Better pensions and strong unions. Basically the workers paradise, the system everyone wants but nobody will admit to wanting especially those hard nosed Johnson pants sniffers who think hard work and low pay is the way to go.

[Nick]

To be fair Nick, I didn't even hear the term Food bank until Cameron and Clegg created Austerity and I would be surprised if foodbanks are even a new thing in 2000. Didn't Victorians hand out food to the poor? As for this milk bollocks, I have heard that before and when I researched it then it was down to school practices and costs not a snatch like Thatcher.

As for socialism, I promote the Scandinavian model. Sure they have high taxes but my god they have a great social program. None of this working until your 90 shit in Norway. I remember reading Poland having as hissy because Norway won't share their oil/gas at a cut price. There response. Its our pension fund.

The Scandinavian system would mean a complete shift in economy. Increasing salaries by 30%, highest tax bracket of 70%. And the last time I was in the region there were no single mothers with 12 children advertising for sperm donor #13 claiming 40K a year. 
Tell me B0ycey, what are the WORKING elements of socialism? BTW, I do believe the Nazi party was a socialist party. 😉 

[srb7677]

on the plus side , for the moment anyway mick lynch eems to have appeared rather eloquently and impressivley out of nowhere. Someone said he has done more damage in a few days to the tories than keir starmer has in two years.

Starmer and his mini mees will be deriding him as "far left", a "trot", a "marxist leninist", and an "extremist" to curry favour with the Sun and Mail before we know it. This is how genuine socialists are derided and dehumanised by the thatcherite establishmentarians running the two party Westminster duopoly.

[Thomas]

They're all being driven out on any available pretext or just leaving in disgust.

on the plus side , for the moment anyway mick lynch eems to have appeared rather eloquently and impressivley out of nowhere. Someone said he has done more damage in a few days to the tories than keir starmer has in two years.

[Thomas]

They're all being driven out on any available pretext or just leaving in disgust.

Mind you saying that to me just post starmers coronation , and it appears you are 100 % correct from what im seeing steve. A labour leader telling members and mps not to support strikes and picket lines must be a new low , even for starmer.

[Thomas]

Just because I have a social conscience that some folk get left in a worse place than they should you turn me into 'a true conservative and traditionalist in every sense' as if it's some sort of failing on my part.

it was sort of a compliment.

I could say that you come across as a totally insensitive so an so.

you can if you like. Its your point of view , but what you call insensitivity i call realism. Reality is a difficult place for certain people  to reside in .

It's not true! It's not like swimming and it's not necessarily easy for a lot of people

There you go again toots making sweeping generalisations but being unable to quantify these "lots " of people.

You are just wanting to sweep along as if those not able are not worth the time or effort and deserve to get left behind

Not i. Im making the point to you business are in the industry of profit making , and will simply not cater to a small minority unless its worth their while to do so. Thats all im saying. Emotion doesnt come into it , or sympathy.

Do we assume from that that you have no parents who are struggling yet so  it's outside your experience? Come on Thomas you are just being harsh

Both my parents have passed , but when they were alive my mum was fairly computer literate and used stuff like facebook to keep in touch , my dad less so. As i already pointed out elderly aunties and other relations all use smart phones and are extremely tech savvy. This tends to reflect wider society , and im simply asking who are these small minorty of people scared to turn on a laptop or pc , because im not aware of any in my experience , hence why im saying its an argument that doesnt reflect whats happening in society.

Over the last ten years if i recall correct we have had the phenomena in many western countires of the silver surfer  , the elderly who discovered tech and took to it in large numbers enthusiastically. So im really not sure who it is you are talking about , and until you can quantify the problem , and who we are talking about and where , how do you expect to do someothing about it?

[srb7677]

is there actually a true socialist left in the modern labour party?

They're all being driven out on any available pretext or just leaving in disgust.

[T00ts]

You really do strike me toots as a true conservative and traditionalist in every sense. I hear what you are saying  though, but once again , the world doesnt stop turning because a few dont want to get on the bus. Internet and tech are here to stay and never going away , in every walk of life , and business wont tailor to an ever decreasing minority .
you get left behind with tech every day , but its sort of like swimming. One you are in the water and learn the basics , you can easily learn the back stoke or breastroke or any other .

Just because I have a social conscience that some folk get left in a worse place than they should you turn me into 'a true conservative and traditionalist in every sense' as if it's some sort of failing on my part. I could say that you come across as a totally insensitive so an so. It's not true! It's not like swimming and it's not necessarily easy for a lot of people. You are just wanting to sweep along as if those not able are not worth the time or effort and deserve to get left behind. That's awful. That means that some - and yes of course the numbers will fall - will suffer more. If there is the ability for them to have tech they can use why should it not remain? Do we assume from that that you have no parents who are struggling yet so  it's outside your experience? Come on Thomas you are just being harsh.

[Thomas]

uk has  a debt of £2 trillion  while norway has an oil fund of nearly £800 billion.

[Thomas]

I remember reading Poland having as hissy because Norway won't share their oil/gas at a cut price. There response. Its our pension fund.

i mind reading talks by lesley riddoch regarding the comparison between norway and scotland. Two countires have same popualtion , similar geography share north sea oil gas and fishing , yet we remained in this dsgusting union while norway wtithdrew from two with thier neighbours over the last two centuries.

The invested their oil wealth wisely while thatcher squandered ours .

in 2016 for example , norway made £12 billion from their oil and gas industry , while westmisnter mismanaged and lost £312 million from our similar sized oil and gas.

Int it amazing what you can do free of the shackles of other nations parliaments?

[Thomas]

To be fair Nick, I didn't even hear the term Food bank until Cameron and Clegg created Austerity and I would be surprised if foodbanks are even a new thing in 2000. Didn't Victorians hand out food to the poor? As for this milk bollocks, I have heard that before and when I researched it then it was down to school practices and costs not a snatch like Thatcher.

As for socialism, I promote the Scandinavian model. Sure they have high taxes but my god they have a great social program. None of this working until your 90 shit in Norway. I remember reading Poland having as hissy because Norway won't share their oil/gas at a cut price. There response. Its our pension fund.

we used to have some great dicsussions with people like marxist nutter on this forums predecessor on the different  political and economic theories of social organisation. I fully agree with you on scandinavian models of government.

Perhaps you should start a thread on say norwegian government and way of life compared to the uk , and the differences between them.

[Thomas]

I thought I had posted this earlier but can't find it.

I have listed the 10 people I know who are 80 and over. It's ok talking about the over 65s but the difference in those 15 years is huge for many. All of those I have thought of who I know pretty well even if they used to use tech have either completely or largely ceased. The reasons are changes in systems that make them lose confidence. Loss of some faculties and ill health. Reliance on children/grandchildren who are quicker and more assured with it.

For these the landline tends to be the one thing they feel more comfortable with, and yet so many companies no longer available to speak to in person. The fact of being driven to use helpers reduces confidence even more and attempts to learn and then use tech makes them feel more inadequate and embarrassed because it often takes longer. Even you youngsters who have grown up with it, if tech continues to progress at the current rate you will find that you too will get left behind.   There will never be a time when everyone can be counted as being on the same page.

You really do strike me toots as a true conservative and traditionalist in every sense. I hear what you are saying  though, but once again , the world doesnt stop turning because a few dont want to get on the bus. Internet and tech are here to stay and never going away , in every walk of life , and business wont tailor to an ever decreasing minority .

Even you youngsters who have grown up with it, if tech continues to progress at the current rate you will find that you too will get left behind.

you get left behind with tech every day , but its sort of like swimming. One you are in the water and learn the basics , you can easily learn the back stoke or breastroke or any other .