Secular society from beginning of time.

[T00ts]

I have just read John 16:24. Of course, no great spiritual realisation has come my way as a result. I remain unconvinced. But to be fair it is difficult to sincerely ask for anything in the name of an entity I don't really believe in. The verse seems to regard sincerity of belief as an essential prerequisite for getting a positive answer. And therein lies the problem. I long ago rejected organised religion as the path to truth, including Christianity. But if some realisation  should come my way in due course you'll be the first to know.

Keep looking! Previous rejection doesn't mean it can't be reversed. Our Father in Heaven is a God of miracles. I look forward to hearing from you! 

[srb7677]

Thank you for sharing. It's really difficult isn't it? I can understand your response to the OT but perhaps your search is not completed yet. I have learned over the years that to trust just our own self is where we so often fail. If you are serious then read John 16:24. It was a verse that resonated with me and is there for a reason, and I did ask for the truth. It needs to be sincere and the answer may not come straight away or as a blinding light. For me it was as simple as washing the dishes and seeing a blackbird land on a washing line and look at me. The strength of that moment has dominated my life. Ask and really mean it and keep asking. Then keep your mind and heart open and I promise the reply will come. Thank goodness it's Sunday! 

I have just read John 16:24. Of course, no great spiritual realisation has come my way as a result. I remain unconvinced. But to be fair it is difficult to sincerely ask for anything in the name of an entity I don't really believe in. The verse seems to regard sincerity of belief as an essential prerequisite for getting a positive answer. And therein lies the problem. I long ago rejected organised religion as the path to truth, including Christianity. But if some realisation  should come my way in due course you'll be the first to know.

[T00ts]

Something in your heart which you cannot explain is never going to convince others like me.

And I am not some sort of ultra-rationalist who rejects all things spiritual. I have asked questions and explored deeper truths myself in the past. I believe that all living things have immortal souls, I believe in an afterlife, and I believe in reincarnation. But I rejected the God of the old testamant - a cruel, jealous, and vengeful entity that sounds all too suspiciously like a human construct. Some parts of the bible are more enlightened of course. In particular, Jesus comes across as the sort of character with the sort of values that any good socialist could respect. Yet taken in it's entirety I did not find the bible spiritually uplifting or convincing. And yes I did read it all whilst on my journey. I even invited Jehovah's Witnesses into my home every week for several months to discuss things with them and attended their church - known as a kingdom hall - one sunday. I took my explorations seriously, but have come out against any belief in organised religions

Thank you for sharing. It's really difficult isn't it? I can understand your response to the OT but perhaps your search is not completed yet. I have learned over the years that to trust just our own self is where we so often fail. If you are serious then read John 16:24. It was a verse that resonated with me and is there for a reason, and I did ask for the truth. It needs to be sincere and the answer may not come straight away or as a blinding light. For me it was as simple as washing the dishes and seeing a blackbird land on a washing line and look at me. The strength of that moment has dominated my life. Ask and really mean it and keep asking. Then keep your mind and heart open and I promise the reply will come. Thank goodness it's Sunday!  

[srb7677]

I think that's a very fair summary of what many people choose to believe. The trouble is that there is something in my heart that totally refutes that belief and the biggest trouble is that I cannot explain it. I have had very real experiences in my life that have more than convinced me that the 'way of the world' is the biggest falsehood of our existence. I wish it was something that I could share on a spoon or in a glass but sadly it is up to each individual to really and honestly look for what I believe is the real truth. I guess that one could say that nothing is lost in asking. The worst that might happen is that you get the same answer that I have. Believe me it would be much easier to live without this conviction but once realised it cannot be denied. There will come a time when it is recognised that our scientific discoveries will align with the recognition of a truly all powerful Father in Heaven but it just might be a bit late in coming.

Something in your heart which you cannot explain is never going to convince others like me.

And I am not some sort of ultra-rationalist who rejects all things spiritual. I have asked questions and explored deeper truths myself in the past. I believe that all living things have immortal souls, I believe in an afterlife, and I believe in reincarnation. But I rejected the God of the old testamant - a cruel, jealous, and vengeful entity that sounds all too suspiciously like a human construct. Some parts of the bible are more enlightened of course. In particular, Jesus comes across as the sort of character with the sort of values that any good socialist could respect. Yet taken in it's entirety I did not find the bible spiritually uplifting or convincing. And yes I did read it all whilst on my journey. I even invited Jehovah's Witnesses into my home every week for several months to discuss things with them and attended their church - known as a kingdom hall - one sunday. I took my explorations seriously, but have come out against any belief in organised religions

[T00ts]

Unlikely, I think.

Ancient faiths as Manichaeism, Mithraism, and Tengriism are known about, but gone.

Other ancient, but still practising, faiths include:

• Hinduism (founded around the 15th – 5th century BCE)
• Zoroastrianism (10th – 5th century BCE)****
• Judaism (9th – 5th century BCE)
• Jainism (8th – 2nd century BCE)
• Confucianism (6th – 5th century BCE)
• Buddhism (6th – 5th century BCE)
• Taoism (6th – 4th century BCE)
• Shintoism (3rd century BCE – 8th century CE)

****Zoroastrianism is an ancient Indo-Iranian (and probably the oldest monotheist religion) and is thought to date back to the 2nd millennium BCE. It was probably the principal founding influence of the three Abrahamic tradition religions.

However, since BC has universally become BCE, Judaism may have influenced research into this...

Thank you I will see what I can find.

[patman post]

Exactly. I am coming to the understanding that actually it [the Old Testament] is the original record.

Unlikely, I think.

Ancient faiths as Manichaeism, Mithraism, and Tengriism are known about, but gone.

Other ancient, but still practising, faiths include:

• Hinduism (founded around the 15th – 5th century BCE)
• Zoroastrianism (10th – 5th century BCE)****
• Judaism (9th – 5th century BCE)
• Jainism (8th – 2nd century BCE)
• Confucianism (6th – 5th century BCE)
• Buddhism (6th – 5th century BCE)
• Taoism (6th – 4th century BCE)
• Shintoism (3rd century BCE – 8th century CE)

****Zoroastrianism is an ancient Indo-Iranian (and probably the oldest monotheist religion) and is thought to date back to the 2nd millennium BCE. It was probably the principal founding influence of the three Abrahamic tradition religions.

However, since BC has universally become BCE, Judaism may have influenced research into this...

[T00ts]

I do not believe that there has ever been a secual society since the beginning of time. Ever since we evolved into a species with imagination and a desire to understand and influence the world around us, we have invented, gods, spirits, angels, demons. Throughout most of our history on this planet when we had very little scientific knowledge, we conjured up supernatural explanations for everything we could not understand. In the most primitive societies this often tended to be animist, imaging tree spirits, water sprits, sky spirits, animal spirits etc. Hand in hand with this was a desire for some means of reassurance, that the spirits could be positively influenced to bring positive outcomes. With the advance of civilisations, religions tended to become more sophisticated.

The advance of secularisation is a fairly modern phenomenon closely associated with the advance of scientific knowledge. As we learn more and more about how the universe really works scientifically, the less we need supernatural explanations, and indeed it has long since been the case that any real knowledge of science has made a belief in - for example - the literal truth of every word in the bible as logically impossible. Same could be said of the Koran or any other sacred texts. The bible is now having to be "understood" in large measure as metaphor and allegory, rather than literal fact.

Human knowledge has advanced to the level where it is possible now for many millions of people to view religion as outdated superstitions and to put their faith in the way things are and the way things work in the explanations of science. Religion relies heavily now for it's survival on a combination of indoctrination and scientific ignorance.

I think that's a very fair summary of what many people choose to believe. The trouble is that there is something in my heart that totally refutes that belief and the biggest trouble is that I cannot explain it. I have had very real experiences in my life that have more than convinced me that the 'way of the world' is the biggest falsehood of our existence. I wish it was something that I could share on a spoon or in a glass but sadly it is up to each individual to really and honestly look for what I believe is the real truth. I guess that one could say that nothing is lost in asking. The worst that might happen is that you get the same answer that I have. Believe me it would be much easier to live without this conviction but once realised it cannot be denied. There will come a time when it is recognised that our scientific discoveries will align with the recognition of a truly all powerful Father in Heaven but it just might be a bit late in coming.

[srb7677]

In my study of the Old Testament today the question was asked do you know of any country/society that has been secular from its inception? Is there any group of people that we know of where secularity is not just a fairly modern construct?

I can't think of any but wondered if you brain boxes out there know better.

I do not believe that there has ever been a secular society since the beginning of time. Ever since we evolved into a species with imagination and a desire to understand and influence the world around us, we have invented, gods, spirits, angels, demons. Throughout most of our history on this planet when we had very little scientific knowledge, we conjured up supernatural explanations for everything we could not understand. In the most primitive societies this often tended to be animist, imagining tree spirits, water sprits, sky spirits, animal spirits etc. Hand in hand with this was a desire for some means of reassurance, that the spirits could be positively influenced to bring positive outcomes. With the advance of civilisations, religions tended to become more sophisticated.

The advance of secularisation is a fairly modern phenomenon closely associated with the advance of scientific knowledge. As we learn more and more about how the universe really works scientifically, the less we need supernatural explanations, and indeed it has long since been the case that any real knowledge of science has made a belief in - for example - the literal truth of every word in the bible as logically impossible. Same could be said of the Koran or any other sacred texts. The bible is now having to be "understood" in large measure as metaphor and allegory, rather than literal fact.

Human knowledge has advanced to the level where it is possible now for many millions of people to view religion as outdated superstitions and to put their faith in the way things are and the way things work in the explanations of science. Religion relies heavily now for it's survival on a combination of indoctrination and scientific ignorance.

[Barry]

Exactly. I am coming to the understanding that actually it is the original record.

#metoo

[T00ts]

But that's Jewish...?!?!

Exactly. I am coming to the understanding that actually it is the original record. 

[patman post]

But that's Jewish...?!?!

[T00ts]

It does seem from the bit of research I have managed so far that every culture has had a belief in a Deity of some kind. It begs the question of was there an original belief system? Perhaps the Old Testament is in fact that record.

[johnofgwent]

I stand corrected on that JoG , not sure they are much more than names given to  everyday events though .

When I miss a putt I say the golfing gods are not with me today . That doesnt actually mean I believe there is a golfing god

When an Inuit sees the Caribou running the other way he thinks tetteitsertock isnt with me today .  Ill look into it .

I only knew because of a wierd bit of horror fiction that I reviewed years ago which I had to correct ... I had to rely on wiki now to name them.

I suppose many African cultures revolve around shamen but I think even they have some link to a supernatural being / entity....

[Streetwalker]

"No divinity or gods"

Um ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inuit_religion#Deities

I stand corrected on that JoG , not sure they are much more than names given to  everyday events though .

When I miss a putt I say the golfing gods are not with me today . That doesnt actually mean I believe there is a golfing god

When an Inuit sees the Caribou running the other way he thinks tetteitsertock isnt with me today .   Ill look into it . 

[johnofgwent]

The closest I can think of is the Inuit people of the North . No particular 'religion ' but living shamen who guide through lifes problems . No divinity or gods , no creators or punishments in any afterlife ,  just life , living and surviving .

"No divinity or gods"

Um ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inuit_religion#Deities