Dream ticket?

[cromwell]

You are the one who brought whataboutery into this thread when you responded to my calling out of extremist language from Borchester by referencing uncited examples of similar lextremism on the other side.

When you came back with an example, it was not anything I ever said so I don't know what point you are trying to make.

Fact is, extremist sentiments by Leavers are not justified by extremist sentiments by Remainers. They do not justify each other. But the deployment of whataboutery is explicitly designed to minimise extremist sentiment on your own side, as if it is somehow made acceptable by extremist sentiments amongst elements of the opposing side.


Whataboutery is the last gambit of those who cannot defend the indefensible on their own side

I never mentioned whataboutery till you did,the fact you think brexit is precious was the reference and it was made clear that it isn't precious at all merely an expectation that a democratic vote be honoured......something so many not least in all the main political parties find difficult to grasp and it can be seen in this contest too.

[Sheepy]

And the more I see of the slow motion car crash that is Brexit, the more I have to question the faux patriotic bona fides of some Leavers.

Like I said no good thinking you can have a foot in both camps. 

[srb7677]

Whataboutery though imo is only another gambit used to shut down another's argument

You are the one who brought whataboutery into this thread when you responded to my calling out of extremist language from Borchester by referencing uncited examples of similar lextremism on the other side.

When you came back with an example, it was not anything I ever said so I don't know what point you are trying to make.

Fact is, extremist sentiments by Leavers are not justified by extremist sentiments by Remainers. They do not justify each other. But the deployment of whataboutery is explicitly designed to minimise extremist sentiment on your own side, as if it is somehow made acceptable by extremist sentiments amongst elements of the opposing side.


Whataboutery is the last gambit of those who cannot defend the indefensible on their own side

[Good old]

I would get Brexit done properly within 4 months of being in #10.

Firstly, there would be no EU fishing boats within U.K. waters until a proper deal has been made allowing our catch to get to get to the EU. Any stunts pulled by the French blocking wagons or boats would result in an immediate ban on the EU fishing in our waters, enforced by the Royal Navy.

Secondly, the EU would be told they had an open border on the island of Ireland and that the Irish Sea border was gone. The onus would be on them to build a border. Guess what, they'd deal quicker than you can say Good Friday Agreement.

This is the only way the EU will ever deal, they think they hold all the cards.

If your solution was so very easy to do, without inviting more severe complications. Don't you think our Brexit positive government would have done it? Every thing has a price. And until that price is worth paying enough to actually pay it you don't have a good purchase.

[cromwell]

Whataboutery without examples will win no arguments. Nor does it excuse labelling thoise of us who voted Remain as traitors.

I happen to think our national and economic interests were better served in the EU. And the more I see of the slow motion car crash that is Brexit, the more I have to question the faux patriotic bona fides of some Leavers.

Well if making labels that describe those who voted leave as Gollum like creatures who were mad with a desire for an object who only wanted a democratic vote honoured isn't whataboutery I don't know what is.

Whataboutery though imo is only another gambit used to shut down another's argument,I think it entirely fair to quote examples that illustrate the flaws or drawbacks in another's stance though I'm not necessarily saying you're attempting to do that.

[Nick]

Whatever's on the different agendas, Brexit remains a principal concern both in the Tory leadership election and throughout UK politics.

As well as Johnson's many other faults and mistakes, he was hampered by his faulty compunction to get Brexit done at any cost.

It's a great shame that Tory administrations from 2010 on, didn't take on board Margaret Thatcher's approach of whittling down the UK's EU-membership commitments to, ultimately, a more favourable mainly trading association.

Latterly, Johnson's approach has been like an outsider wanting to be let back in a bit by threatening to punch themselves in the face if they don't get some of their wants met.

The next leader needs to be looking for conciliation rather than tin-can rattling confrontation...

I would get Brexit done properly within 4 months of being in #10. 

Firstly, there would be no EU fishing boats within U.K. waters until a proper deal has been made allowing our catch to get to get to the EU. Any stunts pulled by the French blocking wagons or boats would result in an immediate ban on the EU fishing in our waters, enforced by the Royal Navy. 

Secondly, the EU would be told they had an open border on the island of Ireland and that the Irish Sea border was gone. The onus would be on them to build a border. Guess what, they'd deal quicker than you can say Good Friday Agreement. 

This is the only way the EU will ever deal, they think they hold all the cards. 

[Good old]

You sound like a very desperate man good old. Maybe stop reading the world according to Tony Blair.

Why would I need to refer to Blair, to know the Tory party didn't really want Brexit, and has only got this far with it by changing its skin? I couldn't quote Blair, anymore than I could quote Thatcher, both have influenced me in some way or another, and I'm not desperate about anything other than this country becoming a better place than it is already.

[srb7677]

You sometimes have to take what Borky says with a large barrel of salt,also it's not as if ridiculous statements aren't made by those who voted remain about leave voters is it?

Whataboutery without examples will win no arguments. Nor does it excuse labelling thoise of us who voted Remain as traitors.

I happen to think our national and economic interests were better served in the EU. And the more I see of the slow motion car crash that is Brexit, the more I have to question the faux patriotic bona fides of some Leavers.

[cromwell]

Such exaggerated and obsession-fueled language is typical of some Brexiteers, who are clearly willfully dividing society into friends and foes and sowing division.

To describe those who supported EU membership as traitors is ridiculous.

You sometimes have to take what Borky says with a large barrel of salt,also it's not as if ridiculous statements aren't made by those who voted remain about leave voters is it? 

[srb7677]

Remainers are traitors who attempted to betray the UK to the EU

Such exaggerated and obsession-fueled language is typical of some Brexiteers, who are clearly willfully dividing society into friends and foes and sowing division.

To describe those who supported EU membership as traitors is ridiculous.

[Sheepy]

But then they still don't realise how close their party is to being taken over in fact this leadership race is as much to do with what really is a Tory as to how to run the country.

You sound like a very desperate man good old. Maybe stop reading the world according to Tony Blair.

[T00ts]

I don't dispute any of what you say, because my point is that it is an extremely partial vote, whichever way you cut it.

My reform would be to have run-off votes among MPs only, to be held every day from the first Monday after the resignation. The candidte coming last, drops off each time, and the voting continues until someone gets over 50% of the vote.

If two end up with more than 50%, the job's decided on the toss of a coin and the tellers get transferred to the OBR...

I was with you til the last line!    The trouble is that we are not voting for just a party leader, he/she will automatically become PM. Even though I am a staunch Conservative (at least until I see who wins)it sort of sticks in my throat that that's automatically the new PM. Mainly because already, if I'm not mistaken, promises are being made that I am not sure were in the last manifesto. We'll see.

[patman post]

Yes but you have to remember that Labour canvassed the students in various ways and offered not only no Uni fees but something like £3 membership if I remember right. Was it Ed Milliband that gave cheap membership and then Corbyn who promised the earth tied in a red ribbon in the hope of getting the key to No10 front door even though he vowed he wouldn't live there and neglect his allotment. We were obviously a priority in his mind.  The saying goes that the young are Labour then they grow up. 

I don't dispute any of what you say, because my point is that it is an extremely partial vote, whichever way you cut it. 

My reform would be to have run-off votes among MPs only, to be held every day from the first Monday after the resignation. The candidte coming last, drops off each time, and the voting continues until someone gets over 50% of the vote.

If two end up with more than 50%, the job's decided on the toss of a coin and the tellers get transferred to the OBR...

[T00ts]

As of 2021, there were approximately 200,000 members of the Conservative & Unionist Party, meaning 0.29 percent of the British population will choose the next Prime Minister. And I still reckon the MPs choosing their boss by themselves would be better and quicker. They do have to account for their choice in two year's time anyway...

The number is under half of Labour's, which has around 430,000 paid-up party members.

The figures were published in last Friday's Daily Express...

Yes but you have to remember that Labour canvassed the students in various ways and offered not only no Uni fees but something like £3 membership if I remember right. Was it Ed Milliband that gave cheap membership and then Corbyn who promised the earth tied in a red ribbon in the hope of getting the key to No10 front door even though he vowed he wouldn't live there and neglect his allotment. We were obviously a priority in his mind.  The saying goes that the young are Labour then they grow up.   

[patman post]

As of 2021, there were approximately 200,000 members of the Conservative & Unionist Party, meaning 0.29 percent of the British population will choose the next Prime Minister. And I still reckon the MPs choosing their boss by themselves would be better and quicker. They do have to account for their choice in two year's time anyway...

The number is under half of Labour's, which has around 430,000 paid-up party members.

The figures were published in last Friday's Daily Express...