How thick is Starmer

[T00ts]

It is a false perception that half of them probably don't literally believe to be true even themselves, just a convenient exaggerated gripe.

I mean how many people out there truly - genuinely - actually believe such nonsense as the left want to reduce everyone to the financial level of a shelf stacker?

I have spent a lot of time in left wing circles and on left wing forums - inside and outside the Labour party - and have never yet heard anyone arguing for anything of the sort. The people you reference are believing in myths and scare stories. Often what is happening psychologically speaking is that they are well enough off to be amongst those asked to pay a bit more by the left, which they resent, seeing themselves as uniquely hard working and deserving, so they exaggerate what they are moaning about for a more effective moan. But not one based upon reality.

I like to deal in facts, and false perceptions need to be called out for the politically motivated shite that they are and exposed to the cold light of both fact and reason.

I follow your posts with some interest but what was the thinking behind Comprehensive education if it wasn't to remove any perceived advantage of Grammar Schools?

[srb7677]

I've simply stated the perceptions and actions of personalities that have been given to me

It is a false perception that half of them probably don't literally believe to be true even themselves, just a convenient exaggerated gripe.

I mean how many people out there truly - genuinely - actually believe such nonsense as the left want to reduce everyone to the financial level of a shelf stacker?

I have spent a lot of time in left wing circles and on left wing forums - inside and outside the Labour party - and have never yet heard anyone arguing for anything of the sort. The people you reference are believing in myths and scare stories. Often what is happening psychologically speaking is that they are well enough off to be amongst those asked to pay a bit more by the left, which they resent, seeing themselves as uniquely hard working and deserving, so they exaggerate what they are moaning about for a more effective moan. But not one based upon reality.

I like to deal in facts, and false perceptions need to be called out for the politically motivated shite that they are and exposed to the cold light of both fact and reason.

[patman post]

It is a  false perception mostly self-servingly believed in by affluent Tory supporters. Yes those of us on the left - which does not include much of the parliamentary Labour party - believe in a less grotesquely unequal society which does involve some trimming off from excessively high earners at the top to better reward the strivers at the bottom so that work pays for all. But the notion that we want to drag everyone down to a low level is just a different version of the same shite recently spouted by Nick and is nonsense. The same tired straw man.

Show me the quote where I have advocated everyone be restricted to the same kind of wages as my retail sector pay. No such quote exists except in your feverish imaginations.

Why accuse me of misrepresenting you?

I've simply stated the perceptions and actions of personalities that have been given to me for the reasons people have taken against Labour. And you have to admit that it's lost a fair few elections. 

If I look back, it seems the only times Labour has won elections since the war is when the electorate has not had to endure its leader being in post for a full term of opposition, thus shielding them from the electorate becoming too familiar with their failings.

Maybe it's time to replace Starmer — but who with...?

[srb7677]

One of the reasons that Labour has been kept out of power for so many years is the perception that it's idea of achieving equality is trimming off the top so that everyone is at a similar level

It is a  false perception mostly self-servingly believed in by affluent Tory supporters. Yes those of us on the left - which does not include much of the parliamentary Labour party - believe in a less grotesquely unequal society which does involve some trimming off from excessively high earners at the top to better reward the strivers at the bottom so that work pays for all. But the notion that we want to drag everyone down to a low level is just a different version of the same shite recently spouted by Nick and is nonsense. The same tired straw man. 

Show me the quote where I have advocated everyone be restricted to the same kind of wages as my retail sector pay. No such quote exists except in your feverish imaginations.

[patman post]

One of the reasons that Labour has been kept out of power for so many years is the perception that it's idea of achieving equality is trimming off the top so that everyone is at a similar level — comprehensive schools are the glaring illustration of this socialist philosophy.

Blair managed to knock the edges off this levelling down so that Labour's way forward was perceived as equality of opportunity.

Brown didn't win many adherents, and the Miliband contest fuelled the claims of Labour's dependence on the Trade Unions. Corbyn appealed to those fed up with politics as usual.

Starmer is playing the Blair game — ie, don't make too many definite promises, but state what the party is against and what it's for. He could be the next Labour PM.

At the moment, I can see the Tories losing the next election. Inflation, interest rates and cost of living are likely to be the key topics. So Tory supporters need to let Labour know what they're dissatisfied with after May and Johnson, and what they'll be after from the next administration.

I won't stop hoping for another Tory win — but it's looking more unlikely each week that passes...

[srb7677]

But your idea of equality is taxing the rich and successful until their pay packet equals yours.

Rubbish. That is just something you have made up.

Please provide the quote in which I said that.

It should be filed under "straw men".

[srb7677]

What you going to say Steve if after a year of excessive overtime when you just stayed under the 40% tax threshold HMRC come along and say, oh well, we're taking the extra 20% anyway?

I would consider myself fortunate to be earning so much in the first plasce is the honest answer.

[Sheepy]

Not far wrong.

I know but nobody else is likely to admit it. 

[Sheepy]

It is nothing to do with envy. That is just a bullshit charge invented in defense of the indefensible. I personally feel no envy at all towards those who earn millions. If I won £150 million on the euromillions I certainly wouldn't hand it back, though I would bankroll a lot of causes I believe in.

I do though believe in social justice and the rich getting ever richer whilst the rest of us keep getting poorer in real terms is an affront to social justice. It fills me not with envy towards the rich but anger at their unjustified greed at the expense of the rest of us and at an economic system that allows them to trouser ever more at the expense of all the struggling millions.

Rightwingers cannot understand this anger and childishly mistake it for envy. It is they who need to grow up.

No probably not, but then you are worlds apart just the way it is. 

[cromwell]

But your idea of equality is taxing the rich and successful until their pay packet equals yours.

Is it? I've never seen him post anything like that.

I mean what would you say if I said you regard all people on benefits as scroungers with sky dishes  and 50 inch televisions who are nothing but leeches?

And the windfall taxes should be set out well in advance, you can't just come along at the end of their financial year and say right, we want £50 million extra in tax, that is piracy.

Why not,chancellors come along at budget time and bung tax on stuff for ordinary people without warning.

[Nick]

To me, the current way windfall taxes are applied/proposed is akin to piracy.

By all means tax at whatever rates the economy can stand (or however you want to stimulate the economy).

And also specify the conditions when extra taxes will kick in.

But to suddenly impose additional unplanned tax burdens on oil companies working in extremely volatile markets — where world supply, global demand, catering for delivery and/or storage, and speculation, can boost or shut down demand and affect prices overnight — will do nothing but add to the complication of evening out and continuing supply...

And the windfall taxes should be set out well in advance, you can't just come along at the end of their financial year and say right, we want £50 million extra in tax, that is piracy.

What you going to say Steve if after a year of excessive overtime when you just stayed under the 40% tax threshold HMRC come along and say, oh well, we're taking the extra 20% anyway?

[patman post]

To me, the current way windfall taxes are applied/proposed is akin to piracy.

By all means tax at whatever rates the economy can stand (or however you want to stimulate the economy).

And also specify the conditions when extra taxes will kick in.

But to suddenly impose additional unplanned tax burdens on oil companies working in extremely volatile markets — where world supply, global demand, catering for delivery and/or storage, and speculation, can boost or shut down demand and affect prices overnight — will do nothing but add to the complication of evening out and continuing supply...

[Nick]

Anyone charging extortionate prices for an essential service and making massive profits off the back of that is clearly ripping people off.

Have you checked their profits against 2 years of Covid where people bought a lot less fuel? And again, have you offset their profit against the DIRECT loss the of 20 billion fine, not counting the lost sales on the actual oil loss and cleanup? 
Course you've not, you're just happy to look at the Guardian and accept it. 
I've not looked at the profit and loss, but I'm not complaining about it either. 

[Nick]

It is nothing to do with envy. That is just a bullshit charge invented in defense of the indefensible. I personally feel no envy at all towards those who earn millions. If I won £150 million on the euromillions I certainly wouldn't hand it back, though I would bankroll a lot of causes I believe in.

I do though believe in social justice and the rich getting ever richer whilst the rest of us keep getting poorer in real terms is an affront to social justice. It fills me not with envy towards the rich but anger at their unjustified greed at the expense of the rest of us and at an economic system that allows them to trouser ever more at the expense of all the struggling millions.

Rightwingers cannot understand this anger and childishly mistake it for envy. It is they who need to grow up.

But your idea of equality is taxing the rich and successful until their pay packet equals yours. You're not happy that someone who earns 10 times you is taxed 25 times what you are. Rather than complaining that you think the gap is widening, try and close the gap, nothing stopping you. 

[srb7677]

I don't expect you to, but you seem to think the company should help you out from their profits. In fact you say they're ripping you off.

Anyone charging extortionate prices for an essential service and making massive profits off the back of that is clearly ripping people off.