How thick is Starmer

[cromwell]

Surely we're forgetting why Conservatives won so well and beat down the red wall. It wasn't that Corbyn's manifesto was good or bad it was because Boris was the only one to promise to get Brexit done. Those red votes were leant to stop the chaos of Westminster who had prevaricated for years over honouring the Referendum result. We can't just dismiss that. We are now in a situation where normal service will resume. Starmer only has to give a halfway decent performance to get most of those votes back again. Why? Because those red wall MPs who never expected to win their Constituencies and were green behind the ears panicked that they would lose their seats and income. Thus they aimed at Boris! Some even threatened to cross the floor of the HofC. Why? Because they thought they would be safer on the opposition benches.

It wouldn't have mattered what Corbyn or the Labour left promised unless they vowed to get us out of the EU. They couldn't do that so people moved their X.

Carpetbaggers

[T00ts]

Surely we're forgetting why Conservatives won so well and beat down the red wall. It wasn't that Corbyn's manifesto was good or bad it was because Boris was the only one to promise to get Brexit done. Those red votes were leant to stop the chaos of Westminster who had prevaricated for years over honouring the Referendum result. We can't just dismiss that. We are now in a situation where normal service will resume. Starmer only has to give a halfway decent performance to get most of those votes back again. Why? Because those red wall MPs who never expected to win their Constituencies and were green behind the ears panicked that they would lose their seats and income. Thus they aimed at Boris! Some even threatened to cross the floor of the HofC. Why? Because they thought they would be safer on the opposition benches.

It wouldn't have mattered what Corbyn or the Labour left promised unless they vowed to get us out of the EU. They couldn't do that so people moved their X.

[cromwell]

The general thrust of that I can agree with.

Unfortunately for us in the UK, I don't see anyone capable of dealing with the current situation — we're in the same state as when Johnson refused to acknowledge the overwhelmed and parlours state of Italian hospitals in late 2019-20 from Covid.

Like then, Masterful Inaction will get plenty of people out of the equation, so it's easier to get on caring for the survivors...

Parlours state? We're they in the posh room of a house?

[srb7677]

The mind-set that believes the 2019 election was a win (or even an advance) for Labour is deluded.

I repeat, Labour lost 60 seats...

I never said the 2019 election was a Labour win. What I said was that most of the policies in it's 2017 manifesto were highly popular when polled, and Labour lost in spite of them not because of them. Unless you are going to srriously argue that people didnt vote Labour because they liked most of their policies. Which doesn't make sense does it? Hence my belief in the obvious fact that those 2017 policies would be a good starting point for the left

I have already told you why Labour lost - several times - which you have not engaged with at all. In 2019 especially it was all about getting Brexit done and in my previous post I stated why Labour lost so badly in 2019, citing that as the main reason but giving others

[patman post]

Firstly this particular mire is deeper than I can  remember. There can not be any easy answer, so I can not give a definitive answer to that.
I don't think anyone yet has come to terms with just how bad this present situation is, not just for householders, but for businesses across the board, services public and otherwise.
It's that bad it's close to emergency in my opinion, which party politics is only going to make worse. A coalition of great minds is needed, that includes Tory minds, but not exclusively, only genuine statesmen and not adventurers from all quarters.

The general thrust of that I can agree with.

Unfortunately for us in the UK, I don't see anyone capable of dealing with the current situation — we're in the same state as when Johnson refused to acknowledge the overwhelmed and parlours state of Italian hospitals in late 2019-20 from Covid.

Like then, Masterful Inaction will get plenty of people out of the equation, so it's easier to get on caring for the survivors...

[patman post]

And I told you why. It wasn't because people voted against things they liked, a logical absurdity you cannot convincingly explain. It was because they voted against things they didn't like, some of which I have laid before you.

You can tell us to bugger the polling and bury your head in the sand all you like but the policies people liked were obviously not the reasons people voted against the party.

So the starting point for the genuine left must be to double down on those popular policies, whilst addressing the things people didn't like about the left.

Because to anyone with a logically functioning brain which is not being distorted by it's own personal preferences, if people didn't vote for something it is going to be because of things they didn't like, not things they did.

Obvious logic, and it is laughable that you cannot see that. Explicable too only by the obvious fact that you don't want to see it, however logically obvious it is.

Sorry to boil this down to basics, but Labour lost 60 seats. That's what's obvious to me.

Whatever there was left in the Labour manifesto that (some of?) the electorate liked, there wasn't enough to  retain the votes in the Red Wall, or swing floating voters to Labour. Maybe the electorate liked three Labour proposals, but they liked the Conservative party and four of its proposals better.

The mind-set that believes the 2019 election was a win (or even an advance) for Labour is deluded.

I repeat, Labour lost 60 seats...

[Good old]

So, what's the alternative or answer?

You've said what you believe is wrong. How can the electorate get out of the mire...?

Firstly this particular mire is deeper than I can  remember. There can not be any easy answer, so I can not give a definitive answer to that. 
I don't think anyone yet has come to terms with just how bad this present situation is, not just for householders, but for businesses across the board, services public and otherwise.
It's that bad it's close to emergency in my opinion, which party politics is only going to make worse. A coalition of great minds is needed, that includes Tory minds, but not exclusively, only genuine statesmen and not adventurers from all quarters.

[Good old]

Bugger the polling. When it came to the vote, Labour didn't win. It wasn't the bad fairies that stole the election. It wasn't the weather. Unicorns didn't trample on the voting boxes.

Labour lost 60 seats. The conservatives don't need to explain why they won them. It's up to Labour to identify why they lost them.

So what was the reason Labour lost those seats?

I to will apologise for entering your conversation with Steve.  But surely a very  large proportion of those 80  seats voting Tory , could be explained away by Brexit, little else. Brexit for most people was a protest, things had not been right for a long time, and in the first place the EU were the whipping dog. Then just getting something looking like Brexit done was enough to blind people to the whole picture , add that to the massive hit on Corbyns character ,and job done. Nothing or little or nothing to do with whether these people actually knew what they were doing. Or for that matter, Corbyns policies might have held water. Certainly the idea there was no money tree was in its self rubbish.

[srb7677]

Labour lost 60 seats. The conservatives don't need to explain why they won them. It's up to Labour to identify why they lost them.

Mostly necause of Brexit and the personal unpopularity of Corbyn himself amongst some older voters. There was also the problem of cheap migrant labour from the EU being systematically used by employers to keep wages down and undermine working class terms and conditions, which many working class people blamed the EU or Labour for.

[srb7677]

Bugger the polling. When it came to the vote, Labour didn't win.

And I told you why. It wasn't because people voted against things they liked, a logical absurdity you cannot convincingly explain. It was because they voted against things they didn't like, some of which I have laid before you.

You can tell us to bugger the polling and bury your head in the sand all you like but the policies people liked were obviously not the reasons people voted against the party.

So the starting point for the genuine left must be to double down on those popular policies, whilst addressing the things people didn't like about the left. 

Because to anyone with a logically functioning brain which is not being distorted by it's own personal preferences, if people didn't vote for something it is going to be because of things they didn't like, not things they did. 

Obvious logic, and it is laughable that you cannot see that. Explicable too only by the obvious fact that you don't want to see it, however logically obvious it is.

[patman post]

So, what's the alternative or answer?

You've said what you believe is wrong. How can the electorate get out of the mire...?

[Good old]

But isn't that what campaigning is about — ie, identifying what concerns the electorate and identifying ways a government might deal with those concerns...?

No ! It's short term populist , sticking plasters for the cuts incurred from woeful policy decisions spread over twelve years. It try's to cover the fact that the system they live and die by has let down the general public big time. 
It's an admittance that they have messed up big time and have no real answer to the self  made trap they are in. Other than to imitate what they ,wrongly as it happens call socialism.
None of which solves their or the publics problem.
It's not a game, it's been treated as one at times, maybe that's the problem?  It's about this country being run in a viable progressive way to the real benefit of far more of its inhabitants than has been the case for so long now. 
Something that is now patently obvious has not been the case for to long.
If anyone needed proof it will not change under this government, just check out the leadership race, it's staring you in the face.
No one can know how ,Labour, Starmer, or a coalition might perform, and the establishment as ever will not greatly help. But if anyone thinks this government is leading us to the bright lights and no one else can or could do a better job for the majority of Brits.then fair enough bye bye, Great Britain, hello little unhappy  England.

[patman post]

Bugger the polling. When it came to the vote, Labour didn't win. It wasn't the bad fairies that stole the election. It wasn't the weather. Unicorns didn't trample on the voting boxes.

Labour lost 60 seats. The conservatives don't need to explain why they won them. It's up to Labour to identify why they lost them.

So what was the reason Labour lost those seats?

Give your explanation of why you think that was, and how you think that loss should be addressed, and maybe we can have a sensible debate.

Otherwise you come across as someone who regards and the rest of us as stupid rebels who need to be taught to know our worker place...

[srb7677]

I'm saying the electorate didn't vote for the policies you hold so dear.

And I'm saying - as demonstrated by polling - that it wasn't because of the policies which were popular but for other reasons.

This is obvious.

Unless you can logically explain why liking things were the reason they didn't vote for them. Which is so utterly illogical that you are clearly struggling to interpret your own dislike of them for the people's, in defiance of the actual polling.

There were many other genuinely felt reasons why people didn't vote for Labour. The 2017 policies were not amongst them. On the contrary, their popularity limited the damage in spite of so much else working against them.

[patman post]

Are you seriously trying - again - to tell me that people didn't vote Labour because of the policies they liked? Can you not see that that is not logical? I told you the reasons people didn't vote for Labour and it wasn't because of policies they liked but other reasons, many of which I explained to you.

Clearly those policies are things a majority are prepared to buy into, as revealed by polling. This is where the left need to start, whilst doing something to address the things that actually lost them support. Ditching the only things people liked about them just because you didn't like it is logically moronic.

I'm saying the electorate didn't vote for the policies you hold so dear.

They voted for other things.

The job of Labour is to identify what the electorate will vote for this time. That might be what you think they loved last time but, when push came to shove, they didn't quite love them enough to stop Labour losing 60 seats in 2019, and giving  the conservatives a landslide.

You've got to repackage Corbyn-McD at the very least — otherwise it's just a gloves-off slug-fest more-of-the-same whoever wins...